Renata (00:00.122)
I really like the fact that you reached out to me because when I had a look at your profile and the things that you have done, it’s such a good fit for the audience that we have, right? Most of my audience is in the US, even though I’m in Australia. So…
It’s a really interesting situation for me. Half my clients are Americans as well. So it’s really great when a person like you with such experience reaches out and we can then have a conversation here. And I’m the sort of host. I don’t actually like to have conversations before we start recording because I feel like sometimes we have such a greater conversation offline and I want it to be recorded. So it’s great to.
Linda Spearman Scott (00:55.28)
Sorry.
Renata (00:56.444)
to be out to me and for us to do this organic chat. But what really interested me when you reached out is this, some of the topics that you suggested and especially the one about the changing management styles that we’re seeing in 2024, especially, I think now that it seems like we have crystallized the changes that happened during the pandemic.
the style is definitely different. What are you observing where you are in terms of how management styles are changing now?
Linda Spearman Scott (01:37.392)
Well, I think some of the traditional management styles will continue to be important for the foreseeable future. But I think from an emphasis standpoint, that managers have to maybe sharpen some of those management skills that maybe prior to the pandemic, they could still be a good manager and get by without emphasizing some of those. I think communication is hugely important.
It was so fascinating because at the time of the pandemic, I was working for a top three financial institution with probably close to 200,000 employees and to see how so quickly they got everyone home and working from home. And nobody left that day, I think it was March 15th, and nobody left that day expecting that they would not be going into work for
I guess over a year. And so some of those, I think managers were really confused initially in terms of how do I do this? And they kept just managing the way that they had before. But I think what I’ve seen in the last few years coming out of the pandemic is that a lot of managers struggle with how to manage remote employees.
And even prior to the pandemic, we would have employees who at various times would work from home. And a lot of managers struggle with that because they want to see the task and they want to see what people are doing so that they can put an eye on it and be able to critique and coach, et cetera. Whereas when the employees are at home, they can’t see any of that. So I think it had to go less to the tactics of a job and more to outcome.
based managing where you understand the results that the employee needs to get. You try to provide them the tools that they need in order to do that. And then you have just great communication, frequent check-ins. And the other thing that they were balancing that I think is a remnant of that is kind of evaluating the mental wellness of employees and where they are and how they’re feeling.
Linda Spearman Scott (04:00.7)
because a lot of that changed after the pandemic. the empathy has to increase. They have to get a lot more familiar with the digital tools. And they still do the performance management, but probably a little bit differently because for remote employees, they aren’t seeing what the employee is doing every day. they have to be really good at their time management and
making sure that they understand how to manage in an outcome-based way instead of, I see what’s going on and I can tell when you’re not doing great or I can get feedback from another employee who’s seeing your work who maybe noticed that there was an error, et cetera. So just a lot of flexibility and empathy more so probably than they’ve ever had to display.
Renata (04:54.522)
Yes, yes. With that in mind, what is your take on the recent announcement from Amazon? Because that caught me by surprise. know, what surprised me was how cut through it was, like cut throat it was and how black and white it was. There was no negotiation. was everybody’s back in the office in January 2025 period.
it seems like there will be no room for negotiation. And I think if there is room for negotiation, I think it can be even worse in terms of how it will affect the culture of the place and how it’s perceived by employees that are allowed or are not allowed to stay home. What is your take? Why are employers so reluctant in adopting hybrid or remote work?
Linda Spearman Scott (05:50.138)
Well, a lot of my perspective comes from the large financial institutions. And so it wasn’t a surprise. When you look behind and see how the sausage is being made, a lot of these companies have had hybrid models coming out of the pandemic and trying to accommodate employees who before they would just come into the office. They may have had personal reasons, maybe they were
doing, they were caring for someone or, you know, some people, a lot of people bought pets, et cetera, during that time and had that responsibility. There’s a lot of things that came up over the pandemic that prior to the pandemic, employees would have just come in and they would have found a way to handle those things. And so a lot of these companies,
It seems like a quick decision, right, with Amazon, but it probably wasn’t. They have probably been experimenting with these different hybrid models for some time and keeping track of what’s working and what’s not. And some of the things I saw when I was still working in corporate America is that a lot of employees want to work from home and work remotely. And there are certain companies and industries where
It’s harder to do that. If you can imagine a financial institution where someone is working from home, they may have client information up on their computer. And it makes it very hard if they’re working from home to ensure the safety of client information. And so in these highly regulated industries, there are a lot of compliance rules and regs around how data and information is handled. And it’s
very hard to manage those things with someone working from home. It’s like you don’t know who’s going to walk in and who’s going to see what’s on your laptop. And granted, there are industries where that’s not as big of an issue. I think the problem comes in when there’s a group of employees who want to come in on a regular basis and they feel like they’ve done that all these years and that’s what makes sense to them. And then,
Linda Spearman Scott (08:05.71)
The disparity comes in with those people who want to work from home. And then it becomes the haves and have nots. Well, I’m coming in every day. Why shouldn’t I be rewarded? Because I’m coming in five days a week. And then there’s other things around the collaboration, and especially with emerging employees coming out of college. And they really need that mentorship. And they need to be in the environment in order to learn quickly.
about how to do their job, that becomes very hard if their manager’s working home or if those folks are working home, they’re coming out of college and they are not really learning the office politics and how do they learn quickly and who to go to for what. And I’m not saying I’m on one side or the other, but I saw the trend a long time ago. I thought that financial services would have everybody back in the office.
A lot of the big companies are saying come in three days a week, and they’re tracking it. What I haven’t seen is the consequence model of that. Like, if you ask someone to come in three days a week and say you have to be in three, and there’s a pattern of them not doing it, I don’t know that companies have figured out, well, if you do that three times, then you’re going to get terminated. I think the consequences of it they struggle with.
Renata (09:08.956)
Mmm.
Linda Spearman Scott (09:27.888)
And I think there was, I read somewhere there was even a lawsuit where someone got terminated because they didn’t come in. And then there was a big lawsuit, cetera. So I guess what I’m saying is it’s really complicated for companies to figure out how to do it for some and not others. And then when you think of these big companies, some of the largest banks in the world I’ve worked for, and of course they have a presence in lots of communities.
And if these people aren’t coming in to work, then the communities are suffering because people aren’t going out to eat lunch. They’re not frequenting the businesses around where, in my case, the headquarters. There’s just lots of different considerations that go into it, one of which is how the employee feels about it. But let’s be clear, these are big companies and their businesses to make money and provide shareholder value.
So the wants and needs of employees may not be at the top of the list always. And what we’ve seen is that employees sometimes vote with their feet and they will find a place that can accommodate that. But it almost feels like the work environment is trying to get back to what’s normal, if it’s even normal. And what would be normal was going into the office and.
Renata (10:35.792)
Yeah.
Linda Spearman Scott (10:55.054)
And I’ve worked in financial services. So it’s all about FaceTime. I started out in corporate investment banking, and it was all about FaceTime. But I have to be honest, I’ve worked from home maybe three or four years, and I never even thought I could be productive from home. But I’m like, I am super productive from home. So we all have those feelings about it, right? But it’s very complicated. It’s way more complicated than we imagine.
Renata (11:05.211)
Yeah.
Renata (11:16.451)
It’s true.
Good night.
Renata (11:24.218)
Yes. Now that you left the corporate world and you are in recruitment, are you finding that your candidates seek the hybrid and remote more than they seek, you know, 100 % of the time in the office?
Linda Spearman Scott (11:42.244)
Yes, it is clear from what I’ve seen that job seekers would prefer to work from home and have a lot more flexible options. Because I think one thing that was discovered while a lot of people were working from home is that they prefer more of a balance and they enjoy home life and
Renata (11:44.508)
Yeah.
Linda Spearman Scott (12:11.726)
They, and I’m not saying this is for everyone, but I think the pattern is that maybe I don’t wanna work myself to the point where I’m ill. I wanna enjoy life and not have work be everything, but it’s a means to an end so that I can enjoy those things that are most important to me, which might be family and friends, et cetera.
Renata (12:42.138)
And Linda, what I have found as a coach is that it’s not so much the work that was burning them out. Many times it was just the commute. It was just the back and forth, you know, in some cities in the US that could mean over an hour each way to go to work and come back. In Melbourne, where I am in Australia, I have a friend.
who travels one hour and a half each way to go to work every day. And that is a lot. So if she can find or anyone can find a job where you don’t have to spend that much time commuting, then of course I think that they will choose that. I’m not even sure if it’s really the work from home. I have a feeling anecdotally with my clients that it’s really the commute that really kills it for them.
Linda Spearman Scott (13:32.858)
The commute is certainly a factor. And a lot of times you see that being the biggest factor. Because many of the places where we live, they’re becoming more congested. And so it takes a long time. I mean, I was working downtown Charlotte and it would take, which is maybe, I don’t know, maybe 15 miles. I mean, it could take an hour to get there and to get back.
But then you factor all the other things that go with it, right? It’s the commute. It’s, well, you got to do all this dry cleaning. You got to keep stuff straight. There’s a confluence of things that come to bear when you have to go into an office. You’re paying for parking and all of that. And people got a sense of what it was to not have all of that. And so I think companies,
Renata (14:14.587)
No?
Linda Spearman Scott (14:31.714)
I think they will make some movement toward trying to make it easier for employees. But I think they will only go so far, right? And then again, I think they will always try to get back to what is normal, considered normal for business. But I think companies have come a long way in terms of trying to listen to the prevailing voices of their employees and make some concessions around that.
What I’ve seen a lot is companies beefing up their wellness programs, et cetera, and doing things around benefits, et cetera, that might entice employees and make them feel better about being in the workplace again. But I have to say, just don’t think it’s gotten back to, it certainly hasn’t gotten back to where it was, and I’m not sure it ever will.
Renata (15:32.878)
And Linda, tell me about empathy in leadership. I want to explore that a little bit more with you because it’s almost like before these sort of past few years, empathy and leadership were antagonizing each other. Like you wouldn’t put those two together until recently. I have a strengths assessment test that I do for my clients.
and it shows a talent with all of their talents. And you have leadership here and you have understanding others, which is the empathy part of the assessment there. And when my senior executives rank well in understanding others and not so well in leadership, they get really upset about it. But, you know, I think that leadership as a traditional trait is not necessarily what you need to have at the top of the ladder anymore.
I think that there are other traits in the people’s talents that can replace or work to support their position of leadership, even if they don’t have a leadership trait. So I’m interested in your interest in empathy. Where did you start thinking about empathy in leadership?
Linda Spearman Scott (16:51.168)
wow. think for me personally, I think my sense of empathy came from the way that I was raised. I had a mother and a father. My mother finished high school. My father did not. And my father taught me to put myself in other people’s shoes. And so one way
I put that into action is when I, you know, I’ve been in corporate America, I’ve interfaced with CEOs and very senior level people. And so, and I started out in corporate investment banking. So when you see these bastions of power, you, sometimes it’s hard not to emulate them. And in financial institutions, it’s a lot of it’s about being tough.
and having sharp elbows and getting things done. And so to be in those environments, you can very easily say, the way that I can be successful is to be just like those guys and just be hard and unsympathetic and just get the work done and expect people to fall in line. But what I noticed, I mean, for myself, I said, I noticed early on, I’m pretty self-aware.
that I want to be as respectful and engaging with the janitor as I am with the CEO. If the CEO walks by, I want to be respectful and say hello. But also, the people that are cleaning the buildings that we are going into, they have a job, and their job is just as important to them. And so I’ve always just made it a point to treat.
the people who have no power, the same way that I treat people with power. But going back to your statement around leaders that might be high on empathy, but maybe not so high in terms of their leadership characteristics, I’ve seen a lot in HR with leaders where they’re empathetic, they can put themselves in other people’s shoes.
Linda Spearman Scott (19:11.972)
but they want to solve the problem. And in some cases, they can’t solve the issue that the person has. So empathy doesn’t mean you have to solve. It means that you need to show that you understand the perspective and the experience that people are coming from, because you can’t solve everything to their liking. But if you’re self-aware enough,
Renata (19:19.675)
Yeah.
Linda Spearman Scott (19:39.01)
and aware enough of other people to understand why they believe what they believe and understand what they want and why, half the time it’s just understanding that you or showing that you understand that. And sometimes they don’t even care if you solve the problem or make their situation different. Sometimes people just want to be heard and
and know that you understand how they feel. And so I think one of the most important characteristics of a leader is that self-awareness, to know themselves and how their emotions feed into how they lead and how they interact with people, but also being aware enough to know who you’re dealing with and why and what’s important to them.
Renata (20:39.152)
Yeah, it’s so interesting you mentioned this spillover effect of empathy, where the empathetic person is trying to fix everyone and fix everything. When we’re doing this assessment, that is one of the limiting behaviors of understanding others.
Linda Spearman Scott (20:39.953)
And that’s where…
Renata (21:05.68)
The self-awareness comes from the fact, like you said, you’re absolutely right, that you know you’re good at understanding others and you’re good at listening and active listening and providing the support. But you cross the line when you start to fix everything, when you haven’t been asked to, especially. And that can also burn you out.
that we call that in the talent predicts assessment, we call that limiting behavior. So when your strength becomes your weakness, right? So you follow that strength, you know, and it has a crescendo and you get better and better at it. But if you do it too much, then you, you know, it doesn’t work and you fall off the wagon by using your strengths too much, which is different from having a weakness, right? So a weakness would be
not being able to understand anybody and being quite blase about other people’s problems. So that would be a weakness, but your strength can actually be your undoing as well. So I’m glad that you brought it up. Do you find that? Go ahead.
Linda Spearman Scott (22:13.424)
know what, enough.
I’m sorry, another instance where I’ve seen that from an HR standpoint is it’s a little different, but it’s with managers. Managers hear something from an employee and they want to show that they’re a good manager. And so they’re like, well, for example, I’m going to give you some extra days off so you can go handle that. I know you’re going through a rough time. And the issue comes in is that
You do it, they do it for that person, but someone else comes up with a similar issue and they don’t do it. So it creates risk. And so that’s, it’s a takeoff on empathy. But sometimes when employees kind of bend the rules for employees, they actually create more risk because now you got another employee saying, well, you did it for them. Why didn’t you do it for me?
And I see that way more often. I’ve seen that a lot more often than the empathy piece, but I see that a lot in the middle management level.
Renata (23:26.086)
Yeah. Now I’m interested in that perception, in that sort of perspective that you have from having worked in the corporate world up until recently and now being a recruiter. And I know we haven’t prepped for this question, but have you had any aha moments since joining recruitment and you’re like, that’s why recruiters do this or that’s why recruiters have asked me this in the past?
Because I think it’s such an interesting insight that you could provide the audience now that you are in recruitment, having been in the corporate world. I would love to hear more aha moments from you.
Linda Spearman Scott (24:05.86)
Wow, that is such a great question. And I’ve even thought about that. One thing that’s really surprised me is throughout my time in corporate America, I certainly have recruiters reach out to me from some of the largest retained search firms to the contingency firms, et cetera. And I have not done a lot of applying for jobs, but I’ve
heard a lot of information around people saying that I don’t hear back. It’s like I got these great skills and it doesn’t seem like they’re, it doesn’t seem like they are looking at my skills and using me appropriately and presenting me to the right places and people. And then when I get in recruiting specifically,
And I come in at thinking that is such a personal business and that the job is to really help everybody and help them find the job that they want based on the skills that they have. But it’s a lot more impersonal than I thought. I mean, when you think of retaining search firms, it’s really about their clients and satisfying their clients.
So that leads to a very impersonal relationship. I.e. if I look at your background and you don’t have the kind of background that could help my client, then I hate to say it, but you become of less value in this process to me. And I think a lot of people searching for jobs go into this thinking,
wow, I have an advocate who’s actually gonna help me find the best job. And the lesson is, is that even when you’re in the process and working, you still have to be your biggest advocate and you still have to keep the wheels turning. And I think a lot of people come into the process thinking that they’re gonna be shepherded and they’re gonna be shown and they’re gonna be presented as the perfect candidate, but it’s really…
Linda Spearman Scott (26:24.976)
It’s not that, and it’s not set up to be that because you can’t spend a lot of time on, if you’re a recruiter, you can’t spend a lot of time on someone that you may not be able to place into a job that you have an order for. And so even all of my time in HR, I thought that I would have had a better understanding of that and how it works.
it took me getting into it to understand that it’s a business and it has to make money. And I think a lot of candidates feel like it should be a lot more personal and personalized for them.
Renata (27:01.916)
videos.
Yes.
Renata (27:13.468)
Yes, think it’s really a pity that the candidates don’t actually know this, because I think the knowledge is power and knowledge would make life so much easier for hundreds of thousands of candidates that apply for jobs and don’t hear back. And if they just know that that’s how the recruitment business operates, then they would feel less
Linda Spearman Scott (27:13.722)
So that’s where go.
Renata (27:41.648)
that that is a personal issue. you know, they would feel, yeah. And frankly, that’s the reason why I coach, you know? I always felt as a job seeker that it was a very lonely place to be, that there wasn’t anybody in my corner. I was very lucky that I always worked with great recruiters, but I knew in my heart that even though they liked me as a candidate, that
Linda Spearman Scott (27:45.131)
I agree.
Renata (28:09.412)
meant very little in terms of the decision making at the end of the recruitment process. The hiring manager and the panel had the power and so forth. So yes, you’re right. think that if people here listening have listened to other recruiters on this podcast in the past, what you’ve just said is exactly what I’ve heard in the past from captains of industry in recruitment, people that have been in recruitment for
decades and decades and they all came into recruitment because they love people and because they want to help people and then they realized that, you know, it’s much more complicated than that.
Linda Spearman Scott (28:51.32)
You know, another aha. Could I talk about another aha? In terms of candidates seeking roles, I am sometimes surprised by how little preparation they come into the process. And when you think about all of the tools and technology and coaches, et cetera, that are out there that could help them be their
Renata (28:55.962)
Please.
Linda Spearman Scott (29:20.644)
best selves in this process. I mean, when you think about how much time they actually spend getting themselves ready for this process, I.e., I mean, and I have kids and I’m always coaching them around, know, let me do mock interviews with you. And they’re like, no, no, no, I’m good. And I’m like, no, really, until you see yourself on camera, you’re not good. And so what I’m saying is there are so many tools out there. I mean, if you have an iPhone, you can.
You can push record and answer questions. And you can hear your inflection points, how you answer the questions, how you look when you’re answering the questions. And most people don’t do that. We got AI, chat, GPT, copilot, all these things now that can come up with questions. And my aha is.
while people should use the tools that are out there to come to this process prepared, because it could be the slightest thing that puts someone else, gives someone else the edge over a candidate. And why not be your best self if you have the tools in order to get yourself there? And so that was a big aha. I just thought people came and they were like, had everything together and.
They have practiced and they’ve asked the right questions to understand more about the role that they’re interviewing for and even the company because there’s unlimited information out there. So I think that’s one opportunity that job seekers could focus on that might help their outcome.
Renata (30:52.688)
Yeah.
Renata (31:10.493)
You’re absolutely right, Linda. I think I know why that happens. And it’s kind of a convoluted solution for this issue that I came up with. But I think I’m right. But I’ll share it with you now and with the audience. There are two psychologists that won the Nobel Prize a few decades ago because they found out that human beings are terrible.
at assessing their chances, terrible at probability. And they’re just not good at that. And the lack of visibility that you have when you are a solo job seeker looking for a role, you don’t see the other candidates. You don’t know how many candidates are being interviewed. Right. So when you get the interview, you think you got the job. That’s what they think. Right. And when I tell them
If you got the interview and there are four others, you have a 20 % chance. If you got the interview and there are three others, you have 33%. That’s not much. Even if there’s one other person, you have 50 % chance. They freak out a little bit. They haven’t thought of that before. I kid you not. When I tell them the percentages, they do freak out a little bit. And I think that is the reason why they don’t do the
preparation that they need to is because when they get the interview and also because recruiters want to present the best possible candidates to their clients. So what they do is they pump you up. They make you so excited about it. You know how great you are. You know, this is how you should present yourself. So they give all this information. And then I get clients that have gone through a few rounds of those things and didn’t get jobs. And they say,
the recruiter really liked me. That’s what they say to me. Of course the recruiter liked you. Otherwise you wouldn’t have been selected. You wouldn’t be in the top five, four, three, two. They liked you, but that doesn’t mean you got the job. So that inability to make assessments is really, part of, it’s human nature. It’s something that we need to remind ourselves and remember that the interview is not yet the job.
Linda Spearman Scott (33:30.008)
and put less weight on if the recruiter likes me. mean, the recruiters do great jobs of sorting people out. But the real question should come around, who am I going to be interviewing with at the company and what can you tell me about them? Because they ultimately are the ones who make the decision.
And there’s a lot of questions that they can ask. They may or may not get an answer. But what I find is that candidates sometimes won’t even ask those questions to get better clarity around what they’re going into. And sometimes they do, and recruiters make sure that their candidates are prepared. But I’m generally shocked at the questions that they don’t ask.
Renata (33:54.125)
Excellent point.
Renata (34:18.556)
Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. Linda, you’ve joined recruitment during an interesting time. How is it going in the US in 2024 for recruitment companies? Because in Australia and here in the UK, the market is really slow. So there aren’t that many jobs advertising 2024 compared to 2023. I have a feeling in the US it’s the same. Is that what you’re finding?
in your firm.
Linda Spearman Scott (34:50.028)
It is the same. And I have friends and colleagues in the business, some of which have their own companies, et cetera. And they’ve said the same thing, that it’s tougher. And we’ve been in this weird thing of being in an election year, which is over now, and lots of stuff going on in the market that causes companies, I think, to
be a little cautious about how much they’re spending. mean, think most of these companies are doing great, but they like to be prepared for the unknown. And so it’s the typical thing that happens around third and fourth quarter where they start reducing. I mean, there’s been a lot of middle management layoffs in the US with
and across many different industries. But it feels like it’s something different in terms of something that’s pivoting or changing in terms of middle management. And I’m sure digital technology, AI, and some of that stuff is probably having an impact. And some of it’s just the run of the mill efficiency plays and expense reduction plays that companies go through.
But it does feel a little differently, but it’s a cycle because I’ve seen it before in financial services. It’s a cycle and a cycle, you know, I usually give cycles about seven years because that used to be the financial services kind of cycle. When you see something, it’s going to be there for seven years. And I don’t know how long this is going to last, but the wild card is AI and how that’s going to change how people do their jobs. But yeah, there’s been…
Renata (36:22.534)
Yes.
Linda Spearman Scott (36:45.05)
There’s been a lot of reductions in companies, in financial services.
Renata (36:49.338)
Yes.
Renata (36:56.164)
Now that the elections are over, Linda, and we know the outcome, what are you and your firm sort of forecasting for 2025 in terms of, you mentioned middle management, in terms of jobs that you might see being more popular next year or how are you preparing for that first quarter of 2025?
Linda Spearman Scott (37:23.33)
I don’t know that the election makes a difference here, but it might. But I think the same theme around technology and becoming more digitally savvy as it relates to AI and how do you use all these tools that actually help you to do your job better? And how do you stop being scared that those tools are gonna take your job?
and how do you make yourself more ready for whatever comes? Because people are predicting, I mean, even some of these big companies that are so entrenched in AI, they really don’t know exactly how it’s going to change things. We just know that it’s going to change things. And so some of the stuff that I’ve been doing, I have been taking AI courses.
I mean, primarily free on YouTube, because there’s so many experts out there, and a lot of good information. And I think for some people, that may not be their thing. And I don’t work in technology, but I want to have the knowledge of what’s going on around me. And I think that’s good to do so that you at least see the trends that are coming.
Renata (38:44.048)
I agree.
Linda Spearman Scott (38:50.158)
whether or not you can prepare yourself to be ready for those trends personally, you need to know what’s going on in that space because it will have a big impact. And even if you’re not looking at the big stuff, the small stuff around, do you know how to use chat GPT? Do you know how to get information that helps you to do your job? Do you know which apps help you to do things so much faster? How do you work?
better, faster and not harder. So I think people, think we just, I don’t know that, you know, we’re looking at it and saying, wow, we need to only be taking on those jobs, those technology jobs. But we are starting to see companies want candidates to have knowledge of AI. They don’t have to have done much in it, they need to have knowledge.
Renata (39:46.3)
Mmm.
Linda Spearman Scott (39:48.46)
of it. We are starting to see that. So for people out there looking, those are two things they can be learning more about.
Renata (39:55.152)
Yes.
Renata (39:59.356)
I have a friend and he works in AI in Australia and he asked a job candidate that was interviewing for a job he advertised, did you use AI to do your resume and your COVA letter? And then he told me the correct answer would have been yes. Because I want people to use AI. don’t want people to, you know.
Linda Spearman Scott (40:20.848)
Bye.
Renata (40:26.064)
pretend that they haven’t used it. I want people to know how to use AI well to help them do their work better. So the other thing that I found out recently, one of my clients sent me an article that was published by the Times. I’ll see if I can put a link below for those who are interested saying that recruiters are now…
advising and recommending that job seekers use Chat2BT and other AI tools to write their resumes and cover letters. Because if they don’t, there’s a discrepancy in the quality of the applications. However, as a coach, I instruct my clients on how to do that in a way that’s still authentic to them and well written and not vanilla and sounding like every other application out there. So I think that
It’s important to learn how to use AI to your advantage and not to take away your humanity, if that makes sense.
Linda Spearman Scott (41:24.448)
no, I totally, totally agree with that because I do see some resumes and it can be full of stuff and I can still come out of it and say, I don’t know what this person does. So it looks like it was written by AI and it sounds perfect. And so I think that that…
And I haven’t thought of this, but I think that’s something that recruiters need to be aware of because I think it will require asking better questions to understand what people have really done versus what chat GBT is saying they’ve done. I think it’s going to change. mean, some companies doing interviews and letting they’ll interview a candidate and then AI will rate
Renata (42:09.136)
Yeah, you’re right.
Linda Spearman Scott (42:19.214)
the interview and they’ll pick up facial cues, et cetera. So I think it’s important to understand that. And also with these applicant tracking systems, I mean, why not use AI to make your resume such that the tracking system will pick up on keywords that might be better for you when recruiters are going on into LinkedIn search and searching for certain things. So it definitely needs to be aware.
Renata (42:46.542)
Yes. Yes.
Linda Spearman Scott (42:48.941)
and knowledgeable.
Renata (42:50.308)
Yes. And Linda, you’re absolutely right. And I think that whatever Chattopiti spits out looks perfect because they are linguistics and masters of education and all of these amazing people feeding artificial intelligence with great methods and narratives and storytelling techniques. But if you as a user don’t provide enough input,
into your Chat2BT tab, the output will sound basic. It’s just the basic formatting that comes out right, but there is no meat to it. So that’s why you read it and you can’t figure out what the person does. So my advice to the audience listening to this is that you need to input a lot of stuff into Chat2BT from you, from your, you know, your…
original resume drafts, your thinking, your ideas for it to spit out something that sounds like you and tells people what you do. So I think it’s that lack of input and knowledge of how to add information into chat2bt. And people are very wary about how to ask chat2bt. Just go for it, everybody. Just go test, use it, use it. The more you use it, the better it is at understanding you because it’s now learning from your tabs. By the time
you listen to this episode, things will be even more different. But by the time of recording this, Chattabiti is now learning from each of your tabs that you use. So the more you use it, the better and the better it will capture your voice. think that that’s what’s important. But I once had a client that asked Chattabiti to write his resume as if he was Simon Sinek. So he wanted to have that voice.
Linda Spearman Scott (44:31.95)
Yes. And then the next step was run.
Renata (44:45.744)
No, you can’t do that. It’s not you.
Linda Spearman Scott (44:46.672)
like, you have your voice. And I’m sure you help clients with this, but the next step is even if you get the resume and you get the interview, there are lots of tools that can help you interview better. And I advise people to go back to the basics and just look at your resume and do a forensic review of it and make sure
that you know what you’ve done. And not only know what you’ve done, but what is the skill or competency that what you did displays? And can you talk about it if someone asks you five different questions about the same experience? Because that’s another thing you see is that the answers, how they describe what they’ve done and why that should be important to an employer.
sometimes is a hard thing for them to do because, you know, they’re not used to talking to themselves about themselves, I guess. And people don’t spend enough time getting themselves ready for something that’s so important. Imagine how much time we spend on other things. And this thing that’s so important, who we are and what we’ve done, we spend so little time pulling that information together.
And so, and there’s lots of tools out there to help with that as well. So that’s where we can get.
Renata (46:21.926)
Yep.
Renata (46:25.436)
Yes, Linda, it was an absolute pleasure talking to you. We went off course a little bit, but I think that the conversation is very important. This episode is going out early in the year or even late 2024. I’m not sure yet, but it will be such a breath of fresh air and inspiring for professionals that are looking for work in 2025. So thank you so much for reaching out, for coming on board and sharing your knowledge with us.
Is there any sort of links or information about you that you want to share with the listeners before we go?
Linda Spearman Scott (47:01.86)
I don’t have any link
Renata (47:02.108)
Maybe I can add a little bit to your work.
Linda Spearman Scott (47:06.352)
I can give you a link to CTE. I’m happy to have people reach out to me because I’ve been in HR for so long. The coaching part of me comes out when I’m working with candidates. I just want people to stay optimistic about 2025, that I think things will get better, be flexible and understand that it’s a marathon.
and that if they need to change their goal, then change it, but stay in it. you can’t control the job market, but you can control your attitude and how much time you put into yourself in the process.
Renata (47:53.938)
Yes, that’s wonderful advice, Sandra. Thank you so much.
Linda Spearman Scott (47:57.978)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
