Renata (00:00.176)
So disappointing. But look, remember we had that conversation a while back about the internal candidate. And I did something that I often do with people is that when I think it’s a great idea, I didn’t stop talking about it because I don’t want it to I don’t want to invest too much in talking about it when we were having lunch and I want to have that conversation on the podcast. So this is what I did and I parked it for so long. And I think it’s such a great.
topic to talk about the internal candidate. And one that I think is interesting for both the candidate, you know, that’s not internal, the candidate that’s applying for the job, but also from a recruiter’s perspective. I wonder, you know, how it plays out for a recruiter that has been hired to act as an agent, but then there are internal candidates. it’s all fascinating to me. Tell me about internal candidates.
I mean, let’s start sort of more generally. Then I can sort of dip dive into some questions for you.
Anita Ziemer (01:06.745)
I found some research papers many years ago, probably close to 20 years ago, that showed that internal candidates have a higher chance of success than external candidates when all things are equal. So if you or I have a similar background and capability and capacity, but I’m the internal and you’re the external.
then over time the internal will deliver a better result. So I think that’s interesting. I looked it up again just in preparation for this podcast. And there’s another one most recently, think 2021 University of Minnesota where they did the same thing and they did a quantitative study on internal highs. And it showed that again. But that is when all things are being equal.
Renata (02:00.97)
Do you think that when they hire recruiters then they know that things are not equal? That they need external candidates because they lack the in-house knowledge to take on the role?
Anita Ziemer (02:15.598)
It can be that Renata, but they can also be sophisticated hires and they want to benchmark the internal candidate against the market. And so they want to be sure that their internal capability is as strong or better than the external talent. And so either of those can exist and
Renata (02:36.211)
Right.
Anita Ziemer (02:40.332)
what we appreciated is if they are, if a hiring client is completely upfront about that.
Renata (02:47.506)
Yeah. And how do you think… Now, you have probably seen great internal candidates competing with external candidates. Let’s talk about each one individually. How do you think external candidates should approach the job application when they know that there are internal candidates in the mix? What’s the best approach for them to have a higher success rate?
Anita Ziemer (02:49.102)
Sorry. Sorry.
Anita Ziemer (03:14.816)
I would say, it was a really interesting question and I thought about that. I would say in my experience, so this is qualitative, not quantitative, very few external candidates ask if there is an internal candidate putting their hand up.
Renata (03:22.643)
Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (03:29.42)
So it also, of course, depends on the level. And because I work at the senior executive level, I can’t vouch for those that are doing entry level or technical, technically specific roles. But when you are talking about upper management, very few people ask if there is an internal candidate. And I think that would be a really wise thing to do, not because you want to compete against that person, but it does give you an added sense of the research that you need to do.
to demonstrate your value.
Renata (04:01.928)
Yeah, that’s such a good point. In fact, when I was doing the group coaching just before we started chatting, one of the members of the group coaching, I asked him, do you have questions for Anita? I’m about to interview this recruiter to talk about internal candidates. That’s exactly the question he asked. Can we ask recruiters? Is it appropriate to ask recruiters if there is?
Anita Ziemer (04:24.276)
It is very appropriate and I’m always completely transparent and will share that information. Obviously not by name but yes I’m very happy to share that. That brings me to another point Renata which prompted me to think about this in line with this area of questioning. At board level appointments
when you’re looking at a non-executive director appointment, there is definitely shared due diligence. The non-executive director has to make sure that the governance structure, the performance of the board is going to be matched to their capability and own integrity. But I’ve noticed where there’s an employee relationship, i.e.
There’s a power imbalance and I’d love to see high quality candidates who can back up their performance as superior performances do far more due diligence because an organization is really lucky to get a high performing in hired. You know, the curve would tell us that most people are average, but the people that operate at the 90th percentile can deliver three or four times more value than the average performer. So if you are at the 90th percentile,
Absolutely make sure you are doing your due diligence before. Don’t go cupping hand and say, thank you for the job. Make sure that you are doing an organisation that’s going to match your capacity for performance.
Renata (06:00.542)
That’s an interesting, I hadn’t thought of that at all. Are you thinking about this, you said that at the board level though, right? So can we…
Anita Ziemer (06:13.09)
No, I’m saying board level directors are very clear about their own value and doing their due diligence. And it’s not like there’s not a power imbalance. But I still notice at an employee level, there is definitely a power imbalance between candidates and the employer.
Renata (06:18.689)
Okay.
Renata (06:23.24)
Mm-hmm.
what’s…
Yes. Yes. gosh. You know, today is the third day that we’re talking about power imbalance in the recruitment process. Because, you know, a few hours ago I was with a client and we were trying to find the best approach. And I said, look, it is a power game. There is no power imbalance because of your current situation. Right.
Anita Ziemer (06:38.958)
Thank
Renata (06:57.914)
And in his case, they will be lucky to have him. The help will be the employer will have his help if he joins and not the help being the other way around. The employer will help him. So that is, know, I use the word help a lot because it’s easier for the clients to understand. And then the session after that,
the power imbalance was completely different. You the situation is you cannot play your card so strongly because the power imbalance is not for you, it’s against you. So you have to be more careful with the negotiation, right? Yes. And when it comes to going back to the internal candidate situation, when somebody
Anita Ziemer (07:38.882)
Yes, yes.
Renata (07:55.898)
internally wants to apply for a job with an organization they work for but they haven’t been tapped on the shoulder nobody told them apply how do they go about it you know because they they feel really disenfranchised from the process and they’re not really sure that they will be seen as or perceived as the good candidate for the role i often have clients ask me that question
Anita Ziemer (08:25.745)
It’s a very good question and there’s not one simple answer because it depends on the circumstance and the culture of the organisation, of their team and the project they’re working on or particularly their responsibilities. So I’ll take a midline point and…
argue for the fact that I think openness and transparency in that process is very important. It’s okay to let HR know if you’re working in an enterprise scale organisation to say I’m going to be applying for this role and I would like your support or I would like your feedback straight away that I don’t waste my time. So that would be one piece that I would go to.
And I would also share it with the person if it’s a senior executive reporting into a CEO. I would share it with the CEO. You need to have people on the side and aware of what you’re doing. There’s no value in being fervent or discreet about it. It’s not that you want to share it with a thousand people, but with the people that matter and who are influencers, it’s very important to be upfront with them about it on a one on one confidential basis and seek their feedback.
Renata (09:25.342)
Yes.
Renata (09:38.611)
Yes.
Anita Ziemer (09:38.933)
their support or otherwise and if they’re not going to support you don’t waste your time.
Renata (09:43.4)
Yes, yes. I think that that’s right. think people understand the silence as being, let me self-select myself out of this because if nobody tapped me on the shoulder, then it’s not me. But because they haven’t engaged anybody, they don’t actually, people don’t actually know that they’re interested. And that leaves, you know, a huge opportunity that could be missed.
Yes, so many things have happened this week and I feel like I could share them. You know, I had a client that also thought about applying for an internal role and she shared it in confidence with her manager and the answer said, look, maybe, you know, it’s not the right time or and then she immediately pulled out. She didn’t insist and moved on and we have a different sort of.
pathway for her for 2025 because people are ambitious and the fact that you don’t the good thing about what happened to her was that she didn’t see that as something negative. She just moved on very quickly and I you know I thought that that was a really good behavior.
Anita Ziemer (10:49.397)
Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (10:52.972)
And I love seeing people putting their hands up for promotions. And so one of your questions is about, one of the questions that comes up is, how should I prepare as an internal candidate? And my response is don’t leave it to the last minute. So don’t see the opportunity to say, that’s got my name on it. You need to be thinking about your next role the minute you take this current role.
Renata (10:56.648)
Yeah. Yeah.
Renata (11:05.619)
Yes.
Renata (11:10.141)
Mm-hmm.
Anita Ziemer (11:19.832)
You know, once you’ve got your feet under the desk and you know that you’re performing, what is the next role you want? If you are ambitious and you want to to build your career, but don’t leave it until you see the vacancy come up or you’re tapped on the shoulder. You have to be thinking about that and behaving in a way that demonstrates your value. The further up you go.
Renata (11:36.403)
Yes.
Renata (11:44.956)
Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (11:45.298)
And I think that’s easy mistake to make, that we’re so busy doing our job well that we don’t our heads up and say, what should I be doing now to think about where I’ll be in a year?
Renata (11:50.621)
Yes.
Renata (11:56.754)
Yes. I love that. you know, having been coaching clients for over five years, now 10 years and maybe, I hardly ever see companies being proactive in engaging with their employees about career advancement. It’s usually the other way around, unfortunately. Right. So don’t wait until people come to you and ask, what do you want? Tell them what you want whenever you have a chance. So yeah, that’s very good.
Anita Ziemer (12:02.412)
you
Anita Ziemer (12:24.962)
I’ve recently learned something, Renata, which I have to reflect on my own misreading of the situation. When I read people’s CVs, when I see promotions and rotations within the same organisation, I’m always really excited by those candidates because it did show me that they are performers. But what I’ve learnt recently is that it’s actually more enabled by the organisation than the person.
So there are some organisations that really put their existing talent to the fore and are looking to progress their internal people for retention. And there are others who always think the shiny new thing is going to be better than what I’ve got. And they don’t have a plan in place. So I would also in terms of that, the value equation, if you’re a mid-career professional,
I would be looking at organisations and their own practices in terms of internal promotions and I would be hooking into an organisation that can demonstrate it regularly and systematically does promotions and rotations for its own people. And I used to think it was up to the person but it’s not, it’s actually the organisational systemic structures.
Renata (13:40.926)
That is a good point. Yes, yes. And I think you’re right now that I come to sort of think about. And I see that lots in, I don’t know if that’s what you’re thinking of when you’re mentioning this, but state government, you know, I see a lot of people moving around and very big global organizations tend to do that as well. But if you work in an SME, for example, then you may need to do more of a proactive approach with your manager.
Anita Ziemer (14:01.901)
Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (14:09.282)
You do, that’s right. Yeah, much more so.
Renata (14:13.286)
Now from a recruiter’s perspective, when you’re helping your clients assess external candidates with internal candidates, how can you compare? Because it’s apples and oranges in the sense of how much you know about the person, right? And it can be good and bad because if you’re an internal candidate and they already know a lot about you, they might see you in a certain way and fit into a certain, they have pigeonholed you already.
Anita Ziemer (14:27.982)
you
Renata (14:40.744)
but maybe they’re already completely in love with your performance and it’s hard even for them to acknowledge external candidates. So how do you manage that situation as a recruiter working with them?
Anita Ziemer (14:56.578)
Renata, I compare apples and apples. I take no notice of an internal candidate’s existing relationship with the hiring organisation because that’s their employer. We’ve tried to take the art out of recruitment and make it more analytical. And so our structured interview process is the same for everybody that we interview for a role and it’s tailored to that role. So we’re looking for their capacity and capability.
and experience. But however, when it comes to the interview, the internal interview panel, or the hiring manager, that’s where it gets trickier. And so I can, I can give counsel to some internal candidates about some things that I’ve seen where the good quality internal candidate has fallen down. And that is, as you’ve said, we know each other as colleagues, warts and all.
Whereas the external candidates still got that veneer of beauty and marble and the magic sheen. In two years, they’ll have the same tarnished look as most of us. That’s the nature of life. But the other pitfall for internal candidates is that they are known in a particular role. And I have been surprised when I’ve sat in on panels.
Renata (16:08.692)
Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (16:20.974)
to observe how little a hiring organisation knows about their own internal talent. So somebody might be, I don’t know, deputy finance director.
in this role. But on that hiring panel, nobody knows that in fact in a previous two roles, they did this and this and that, which is directly related to what needs to be done in the future for this organisation. So we have to articulate our relevance and our broader experience even within our own organisation. And I think practising the narrative around that is really important.
and using somebody like you, Renata, or a trusted friend, colleague, family member, to help build out that narrative. So that you can present yourself as a little bit of that shiny bauble. What you know about me is this, but what you may not know is that. And so I’d like to share with you why, you know, Renata, I’ve got, you know, everything that’s required for this role, you do have to be fairly off the front foot.
Renata (17:13.64)
Yeah.
Renata (17:34.662)
And Anita, I’m thinking about a research that you shared, I think it was a couple of years ago, about how professionals that change jobs every few years earn more and progress more rapidly. I mean, there’s controversy about that, but I actually do believe that because of what you just said about you not really knowing about your internal candidates and not knowing about how…
talented they are, how ambitious they are, you haven’t really measured or discussed with them career progression. So sometimes it’s easier to do the side wave moves to the top than to be an internal candidate.
Anita Ziemer (18:17.88)
But be careful that you don’t move every two years too often. Because it starts to look a bit suspect to me. can do that in the one and two year stays in your 20s, maybe up to mid 30s is palatable. But then we really start putting a magnifying glass to that saying what’s going on? Because it’s the year three, four, five that get harder.
Renata (18:21.361)
Okay.
Renata (18:26.836)
Okay.
Anita Ziemer (18:44.846)
And so want to know that you’re going to deliver through good times and bad and you can see things through and you can develop teams and you can lead and contribute. Whereas everybody forgives most people the first 12 months to really settle in and get their hand around a project or a role. And the second year is still quite fresh. It’s really onward from that.
Renata (19:02.761)
Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (19:08.278)
So if I’m seeing that people are moving every two years all the time, unless you’re a contractor, which is an outsourced service, it’s not a long term.
Renata (19:17.448)
Yeah, I was going to say here in Australia, there’s a lot of that going on since the pandemic, a lot of short-term contracts. It’s not like the executives I work with don’t want the permanent roles, it’s that the roles aren’t permanent. They are 12-month contracts that get extended for a year or two and then it ends.
and that’s been happening a lot. Do you see that in the resumes that you receive and is that something you discuss with the candidates?
Anita Ziemer (19:53.938)
the contract nature of work, just as not to alarm your listeners and viewers, Renata, but we’re seeing more applications for roles now than we’ve seen since the GFC. So it’s telling us something. So the unemployment data for Australia, I’m just talking about the Australian situation here.
Renata (20:10.942)
Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (20:21.152)
is probably more reflective of lower level roles, i.e. know, home services, care, hospitality, there is virtual full employment because I don’t think that middle management and above are registering for JobSeeker.
Renata (20:39.368)
Yes.
Anita Ziemer (20:40.798)
they are that we’ve got a lot of people who’ve got their own consulting businesses on their CVs which is a gap really by another name because it’s six or 12 months. I think there’s a tightening of belts in in corporate land and I think that’s it’s an interesting time. We can’t quite make it make sense of it at the moment because the government data doesn’t correlate with what we’re seeing anecdotally.
Renata (21:06.926)
absolutely. Yes. No, we discussed that a lot in my group coaching and private coaching as well, because not only we don’t see it in the data, but it’s not spoken of. Everybody’s quiet about it. So people come to me feeling, what’s going on? I’m applying. I don’t hear back or I interview and I don’t get the jobs. And I’m like, that’s because there’s a lot of people just like you, just as qualified as you applying for jobs. And it’s happening. Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (21:33.346)
that there are, it’s very competitive at the moment.
Renata (21:39.27)
In my experience, I know that a lot of my listeners are from America, it’s actually worse over there than here. I think now we’re recording this as we find the results of the US election. And regardless of how you voted, it’s better to know than to not know. And I think once the results are in, companies will start to then develop plans for 2025.
Anita Ziemer (21:47.788)
Yes, sir.
Anita Ziemer (22:03.714)
That’s Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. And I would always urge people. It is, and I’ll just mention something that’s just on my mind at the moment. We’re running a significant deputy CEO level role.
Renata (22:06.908)
Yeah, so you know it’s good that we mention.
going.
Anita Ziemer (22:25.262)
for a large government enterprise and we had over 200 applications for that role as well as running a concurrent calit mapping and search process. And this was a lot about stakeholder management and partnerships and relationships. of, and of the, my name and number was on every one of those ads and of those 200 people, probably only 20 of them called contacted me directly.
Now, I’m not looking for more work, but that told me a lot about the quality of those other 180 people. Because if you’re going to be in a business where you’ve got to make stakeholder engagement a critical success factor, when did you start by contacting me?
Renata (22:55.24)
and
Renata (23:15.248)
I cannot tell you how many people don’t know the rules of the game, right? This competition has a set of unwritten rules. There are unwritten rules. They’re not sort of out there explained. Some recruiters have a website, a landing page where they sort of, but that isn’t anywhere. And they don’t understand that that is a prerequisite to be considered a great candidate.
and it’s so interesting but you know we go through the there are lots of things that need to be done they just don’t know the order of how to do them so many of them think that you should apply first and then contact why would you do that but it’s you know once you explain then they get it but you would be surprised how many high quality professionals just don’t understand that the order of things but
I think there’s also a generational issue as well that we might be seeing in the future is that there is a new generation of professionals that just don’t know how to use the phone. They just do not call. If I’m working with people in their mid-30s, I have to insist with them. And part of my coaching is sometimes just calling them.
Anita Ziemer (24:30.69)
Yeah. And so do you agree with that Renata? Yeah. So are you comfortable providing that advice to your clients?
Renata (24:41.588)
100 % on this podcast, hundreds of times I have told them, you have to call. behind my client firewall, my IP and what I teach them is the order of things, how to play this game and what to do at every stage from the moment you fall in love with a position. But frankly, Anita, and I’ve learned this from Jeff Slade, and then I’ve had that validated by other recruiters.
Anita Ziemer (24:48.482)
Thank
Renata (25:10.866)
These days, you need to be on LinkedIn, like fully fledged with a profile and an activity that matches your reputation and your experience. Not just any type of LinkedIn profile, but one that is appropriate for your area of expertise and an activity that matches that as well. Because I find it, Slade group.
Anita Ziemer (25:27.128)
Yes.
Renata (25:38.874)
and other recruiters are finding the candidates even before they find the candidates find the jobs. So LinkedIn becomes essential for that and many people still don’t get it.
Anita Ziemer (25:55.094)
And Renata, that also goes back to your point about what should internal candidates do. That is another great way of demonstrating your more advanced talents or connections or interests in the future roles that you want. LinkedIn is such a fabulous tool for that. that you create…
Renata (26:14.27)
Yes.
Anita Ziemer (26:19.252)
you know, a reference site for yourself so if somebody looks at it they get it. It’s not just Renata doing this, it’s also Renata commenting on that, attending that, focusing on that, etc.
Renata (26:32.744)
Yeah. absolutely right. If you are an internal candidate and you have been with an organization for over three years, four years, it’s very likely you’ve become lazy on LinkedIn. You’ve taken it for granted and now it’s time to reconnect with people and make sure that you’re updating your LinkedIn. I recently did a presentation at Slave Group.
and 30 people came and it was really awesome conversation that we had there. It was overbooked. think we didn’t expect so many people to come. But immediately after that, I really did expect more people to connect with me on LinkedIn. And I didn’t see that happening. And I think that that’s very common, you know, for people to come attend like what they see, but then forget to do the…
the rest of the nurturing of connections, is connect with them on LinkedIn, send a message, try to engage somewhat. So it may not be high priority because the race of work takes over and I understand that, but for your future career, it might be important to nurture those relationships whenever possible.
Anita Ziemer (27:53.428)
And I think you make another really good point that after three or four years we can become a bit complacent about LinkedIn but also about networking and I do absolutely think you have to maintain your networks and attend seminars, forums etc.
Anita Ziemer (28:13.879)
and be known and be seen. And also keep yourself up to date because what you learn on the job is one thing but there’s all this additional learning that you’ll find outside sector wide and more broadly.
Renata (28:26.862)
Absolutely. I have another question for you that came from the group coaching today, Anita. So that’s a new one. Sorry about that. But I thought it was a great one. One of my clients asked, how do you close the deal with a panel, a selection panel, when you know that you’re not the ideal candidate for the role?
Renata (28:54.14)
Now, let me explain this a little bit, right? Because when I’m working with clients, when I’m working with clients, we try to analyze what type of candidate we are compared to the competition, right? So the ideal candidate would be somebody that comes from the same industry or an internal candidate, somebody that has more of a linear career.
Anita Ziemer (28:57.326)
Yeah.
Renata (29:23.954)
Because the way that I explain to them is decision makers are usually conservative even when they don’t want to be. They might cast a wide net and then they tend to recruit more conservatively towards the end. In this case, I know that the candidate was aware that one other candidate was from the same industry and had the background.
pretty much was a great fit for the organization. But she was in the final two with this person. Right. So she wanted to get your views on if you were like the the odd one out, the, you know, out of the box candidate, the dark horse. How do you expand your chances of success against a candidate that seems more like a right. Is there a chance?
Anita Ziemer (30:16.718)
Great question. Now that I understand it a bit better, thank you. I understand.
Renata (30:20.882)
Is there a chance for this client or not?
Anita Ziemer (30:26.466)
There is absolutely there is. Number one, I would definitely urge that person and anybody to really do a lot of research on the organisation that they wish to join. Because knowing what their future plans are, and I’m always super impressed by candidates who can feed back to me information about an annual report, about a strategy plan, about a vision, about the stock market price, whatever it is, about their challenges.
because that’s where you’re going to find the gold. And so this is my little bit about IP Renata and I’m sharing this with all your people because I’ve watched so many panels make decisions. So for that person, the way that I would articulate it, perhaps in different words, is if they want to close off the interview or make their statement, having done their research and knowing what the
vaguely knowing what the future of that organisation looks like. It’s mitigating the risk of hiring them. panel, I know you see that I could be a risk because XXX, but the reason why I don’t think that is a real risk is because YYY. And the reward of hiring me, spell it out for them. Don’t expect them to join the dots for you.
Spell it out for them. The reward of hiring me is ABC. And I understand your challenges. I understand the opportunities and I have delivered execs. So you’re mitigating the risk. I’ve done this before or I have delivered, provide the evidence to show it’s a compelling argument. But no matter what question that panel is asking you in the back of their head, they are asking themselves, what’s the risk of hiring Renata?
What’s the reward of hiring Renata? They’re just the two counterbalances. So think about that.
Renata (32:25.556)
That’s such a good point. I love that, the risk mitigation. I think if you have that in mind, I think it’s the best thing to do in terms of helping you prepare and being mindfully in there, in the room.
Anita Ziemer (32:27.374)
you
Renata (32:43.796)
One of the other things that I find very difficult for professionals to understand is the whole networking during the recruitment process with the organization. Have you noticed this, especially in this high anxiety year that, you know, 2024 has been so hard?
Anita Ziemer (33:00.844)
No. Here.
For an external or an internal candidate, do you mean Renata?
Renata (33:07.955)
Who are external candidates? Well, internal as well. think that I haven’t thought of that. Don’t do it. Yeah, that’s what I think too. Because they’re trying so hard to get, you know, the handle on the situation and elevate their chances that they use LinkedIn in a way that’s quite inappropriate.
Anita Ziemer (33:12.77)
Don’t do it.
Anita Ziemer (33:18.318)
and do it.
Anita Ziemer (33:36.599)
I agree.
Renata (33:36.69)
And that also undermines the recruiter who is in intermediary, right? Yeah. So can you see?
Anita Ziemer (33:41.984)
I’ve had the experience of that recently on one particular role.
Renata (33:48.66)
Can you give examples of things that you shouldn’t do if you are going through a recruitment process?
Anita Ziemer (33:58.002)
you know, calling the chair and saying, can you tell them that I’m a good bloke? you know, like, just seriously, it’s as blatant as that. just looks desperate. And it’s inappropriate because the hiring organisation, if you’re listeners and viewers, the Aussie term is he’s a good bloke.
A good bloke isn’t going to cut it. I’m after performance and evidence and capability and leadership and integrity. It’s not because I know John, it’s because I can actually perform this task at an extremely high level.
Renata (34:45.16)
Yeah. And the other situation is when you know who is going to be in the selection panel. Right? So correct me if I’m wrong. The other situation is when you are a candidate and you know who is in the selection panel. You know somebody in the selection panel.
Anita Ziemer (34:59.214)
Say that again, sorry Renata.
Anita Ziemer (35:06.466)
Mm-hmm.
Renata (35:10.148)
My advice to my clients when that happens is to, well, if you know them and you are applying for the role, let them know. Because if there is any conflict of interest, they need to stand out. Yeah.
Anita Ziemer (35:23.724)
Yes. Yeah. And I think raising that with an integrity lens is a really smart move too. Just letting you know that I have my name down for this role and you might be meeting me. I’ll leave it with you as to whether that’s a problem for you or not. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s very appropriate.
Renata (35:40.242)
Yes, yes, yes. Can we think of anything else that we need to discuss about internal candidates today? Have we left anything out?
Anita Ziemer (35:55.161)
let me have a look.
Renata (35:57.764)
we had a list of questions but I feel like we’ve addressed them somehow.
Anita Ziemer (36:01.599)
I think we’ve covered a lot, we?
Renata (36:04.306)
We have.
Renata (36:10.59)
Can we talk about?
Anita Ziemer (36:10.786)
We’ve discussed the network, we’ve discussed the fact also that the organisations that have a pattern of doing promotions and rotations have come to the fore as I used to really honestly think it was the people that got themselves ahead.
but it’s the organisation that’s going to be backing internal hires, more so than the person who’s proven their ability. My one point for your clients, Renata, is that if you are going to be going for a role, that’s a step up about where you are.
Don’t do so if you don’t think you’ve got the capacity or capability to really deliver. If it’s premature, don’t do it. And when I say, where do you sit on that bell curve of performance, be brutally objective about your own assessment of your own performance. If you were to line up with the 100 top performers in the organization, where would you be? Do you know you’re number one or do you know you’re lagging in the bottom 50th percentile?
So don’t get ahead of yourself because it’ll only bring you undone.
Renata (37:21.982)
Yeah, that’s a good point. I usually don’t deal with that with my clients. I usually have trouble convincing them to accept that they’ve been tapped on the shoulder. Like when they have been told, we…
want you to apply for this role. We think you’re a good candidate. I kid you not. I have many clients saying, I don’t feel ready. don’t understand why, you know, I don’t think I’m qualified yet. I’m like, but if they have seen it in you, why can’t you see it yourself? People are afraid of the extra responsibility as well. They think more…
Anita Ziemer (37:59.682)
Yes.
Anita Ziemer (38:04.258)
Okay.
Renata (38:06.708)
a more senior role is, you know, might be harder for them. I actually think the harder part of career progression is the middle. That sandwich in the middle is actually where the workhorses are. And it’s also where redundancies happen. So I’m like, no, just move up a little bit more and you actually be a bit more relieved.
Anita Ziemer (38:24.13)
Yes, that’s correct.
Renata (38:33.406)
But yeah, usually I’m trying to convince people that they’re ready.
Anita Ziemer (38:37.526)
And Renata, I love those people who don’t think they’re ready and yet everybody else thinks they are. Because there’s a modesty about their own performance and yet they are high performers. that’s, I would much rather have the substance than the window dressing. And I love that. And when I hear about those people, they’re gold. So if somebody does tap you on the shoulder, step up and even if you don’t get the role, the process itself will be like a professional development opportunity.
Renata (38:43.016)
Yeah.
Renata (38:58.14)
Okay.
Anita Ziemer (39:07.36)
So, rabbit, it’s a wonderful thing to do.
Renata (39:12.852)
Yeah, you’re right. I think what we’re doing here is a great conversation. It will come out early in 2025, this episode. I think it will be a much better year, both for the internal candidates, but mostly for those external candidates that are waiting for opportunities to arise.
Do you have any final advice or maybe trends that you’re expecting to see in 2025? What is it that as recruiters we expect to see in the months ahead? I mean, there’s a slowdown that’s obviously going to happen during Christmas and New Year. Obviously, and why is it as obvious as I think it is?
Anita Ziemer (39:59.022)
Yeah, I’m going to finish off with little anecdote, Renata, by somebody I know who’s older than I am, who has a grandson who was at university working, got a job at McDonald’s. And he gave, this was a retired CEO, and he told his grandson, just default to yes. Get to work quarter of an hour early, get yourself ready.
Renata (40:03.208)
Okay.
Anita Ziemer (40:26.862)
stay quarter of an hour late, clean up, put your hand up when somebody says do you want to do yes and I think that carries through your career. I know people may argue about that I can’t tell you how much of a career defining mindset that is. When you go above and beyond
when you’re ready, when you want to do more, when you say yes, it will pay off in bucket loads. And really our careers are our wealth creation opportunities. So it’s not for employees, it’s not the employer versus the employee, it’s about the employee making the most of every opportunity.
Renata (41:05.266)
Yeah, yeah, that’s wonderful. It’s a good note to end with. Anita, thank you so much. It’s always lovely to talk to you. We should do more of these chats here on the podcast, although I really do love catching up with you for lunch. So when I’m back in Melbourne, I’ll do that as well. Bye. Thank you.
Anita Ziemer (41:15.02)
You too.
Anita Ziemer (41:24.959)
Lovely. So lovely to see you, Anata. Okay, bye-bye.
Renata (41:31.622)
Okay, don’t go yet. Don’t go yet. I’m gonna stop. Let me just stop and…
Anita Ziemer (41:33.782)
Right, okay.
