Karen: “Okay. So, what brought me into storytelling? There are really two big experiences that did that. First was from when I was a child. So, I have two different color eyes. I have a brown eye and a green eye, and it is my favorite thing about myself. I have a built-in answer to that question, ‘Tell me something interesting about yourself.’ And as much as I loved it, I started to recognize the moment when other people would notice, because their eyes would start to go back and forth between mine.
It’s almost like their brain was trying to decide, ‘Do I look at the brown one or the green one?’ And then they would start asking questions like, ‘Did you know you have two different colored eyes?’ As if I didn’t know my own eye color. And then it would be, ‘What color eyes do your parents have? Do you see the same colors out of each eye, or do your eyes give you special powers?’ And this thing that I loved then just became this big energy drain and almost a burden because now I’m in this awkward situation that I have no idea how to get out of. They would call other people over, and all of a sudden, there’d be 10 faces trying to see my eyes.
And I was not loving it. And I decided the next time it happened, I was going to do something different. When I got that question, ‘How did that happen?’ I said that I was born with brown eyes. And that one night I was in my room coloring, and you know how we all had that box of crayons that we throw the broken ones and the peeled ones and the perfect ones in. Well, I reached into the box, and I pulled out a green crayon. It didn’t really smell like anything, but I took a bite of it and it had a really interesting texture. So I ate it and I ended up eating all the green crayons in the box. And the next day I woke up, and my eye was green.
And so then I would be quiet, and people would laugh but also look at me like, ‘Is she for real? Because she said it so convincingly, but I just don’t think her eyes would change colors.’ And what happened was this incredible shift in energy. You know, I would let them off the hook and say, ‘No, of course, I didn’t eat crayons. That’s not why my eyes are two different colors.’ But then we would have a more meaningful interaction and one we probably wouldn’t have had otherwise. And so, this thing that was then awkward became a moment of connection and bonding. And people even realizing they asked me if I saw different colors out of each eye, and so I recognized like, yeah.
It can be this really interesting way to change our interactions, you know, it doesn’t have to be a presentation. It can create this moment of relatability and I use that as I worked on the other side of the desk in corporate roles as a head of culture in GE and a chief learning officer where I was trying to reach 90,000 employees in 150 countries. And I found storytelling was such a helpful way to help touch each person individually and help them relate to experiences, even if they’ve never had them.”
Renata: “That’s so interesting because that first story from your childhood not only breaks the ice, but it breaks the fantasy barrier as well. It makes it so much more interesting than it is, right? And I wonder, did you change stories? I’m very curious about that situation. Did you from time to time tell a different story?”
Karen: “It never occurred to me to change it. It was always the crayon story. I think because the first time I did it, you know, I was being a little provocative and cheeky. And I think the response I got was so interesting. More importantly, it made me feel like I wasn’t on the receiving end anymore. Like it was just a completely different interaction, but it never occurred to me to tell a different version. So it was always that I ate a crayon, and my left eye turned green. Missed opportunity for sure. There could have been many other versions.”
Renata: “I think this is an insight into the sort of person you are. And I’m kind of thinking, is she a creative person? The lesson here is you don’t have to be super creative and go into fantastical ideas. It can be just, you create – I mean, I’m going to use your words – a toolkit of stories and then you just repeat them and use them. You can also create maybe a recipe of how to build new stories. So, you don’t have to be super creative, you just have to be smart.”
Karen: “You know, it’s not about having five stories you tell over and over. It’s about creating stories that feel meaningful for the audience, and you’re going to tailor them and change them. So, just like when a relative asks you about what you do for a living, and they know nothing about what you do, you tell a very watered-down version, almost the same version that you might tell a five-year-old who knows nothing because, you know, they just don’t understand. But if you’re at a networking event with people in the same industry who do similar things, you’re going to explain it really differently.
And so, you know, your stories do change based on different moments, but you do not have to be this amazingly creative person to do it. In fact, the moment where I started using them more in a work setting came from this incredibly awkward business dinner. I’m out of university, I’m asked to go to my first business dinner, and I feel like I’m playing the role of a grownup going to a business dinner, like, ‘Oh, okay, what’s a business dinner like, you know, what do I need to do?’
Unfortunately, it was a table of introverts. Like, we were the introverts of introverts. We’re looking around the restaurant, and everyone in there is laughing and talking and having a good time, and our table is silent. Anytime someone tries to start a conversation, nothing sticks. It’s just awkward, and it falls flat.
So we’re doing what you do in that moment. We’re picking at our food and taking lots of drinks to avoid conversation. And this guy said, ‘I’m building a deck on my house.’ And we’re all like, ‘Wait, this isn’t a business topic,’ but it was someone starting a conversation. And he explains that he had to relocate a woodpile to the side of his yard to make space for the deck, and on the third load of filling up the wheelbarrow, he took a log off the stack and comes face to face with a raccoon.
He’s frozen, the raccoon freezes, hands up, in this draw. They’re both frozen, terrified of each other. He was saying how funny it was because the raccoon had that mask on, like it was a bandit. And they’re both trying to figure out what to do. So now our table is laughing and leaning in. And he talks about how he takes a step or two back, and the raccoon runs off.
And so now, this awkward dinner has become one where other people are sharing stories about unwelcome house guests, and it leads to more normal interactions. And so, it took this incredibly artificial social engagement for people that, probably myself included, are socially awkward and made it be something that was more meaningful and easy to navigate. It didn’t require creativity, it just required, you know, sharing a story you have.
Yeah, and it doesn’t have to be a business story. Any story about life can work. And the funny thing about that guy, he worked for another company. The purpose of the dinner was for our companies to see if we were going to work together. I always took his call after that dinner because he had the courage to do that.
And we all responded, and I felt like I knew him. And so I was always inclined to say hello, see how he was, and have a conversation. And I probably wouldn’t have been otherwise.”
Renata: “Yes, that’s so true. In both stories you’ve shared, there’s that element of surprise as well, which catches you off guard. I think it’s really interesting, and I enjoy that. And I believe my audience would be interested in learning about that too. They feel like they always need to be so safe, especially because of the recruitment and selection process.
In my teaching, I do say, ‘You have to start with a bang. You have to catch people’s attention when you have them, and not wait until maybe it’s too late or you’re out of the room.’ So, I’d love to talk to you about this idea of the toolkit of endless stories. I’d love for you to share that because what Adam Grant wrote about your book is so true.
He said, ‘We all love hearing a great story, but surprisingly few of us know how to tell them.’ It’s a challenge, especially for my audience when they are looking for work and have to tell so many stories. Think about every single interview question being a story that you have to use to answer them and give so many examples of the things they’ve done in the dot points and job applications.
And when they’re told that they need to have a pitch, you know, they need to have a perfect pitch. I find that it’s overwhelming, and it could be one of the biggest blocks for career advancement, for people to take that initiative in the first step to look for work. Do you think the toolkit of Endless Stories is a good thing to talk about at this stage? I’d love to hear your views.”
Karen: “Let’s talk about it in two parts. The idea behind the toolkit of endless stories is how you move through the world and collect potential ideas for stories, without knowing when you’re going to use them, or who you’re going to use them for or through. There’s a whole other piece that is, as you’re preparing stories for job interviews for these different interactions, we can talk about that because there are some unique things to consider.
The reason it feels really hard to come up with ideas is that our brains are expansive, and it’s almost like sitting down with a blank sheet of paper and trying to think of what on earth we’re going to say. So, if you don’t mind, can we do a really simple exercise to demonstrate how you can get some ideas?
Okay. Thank you. I’m going to ask you two questions. One is intentionally vague. Just do your best to answer. These are brief, like, you know, 15-20 second answers. The first question is: Tell us about your childhood.”
Renata: “I was raised in Brazil and lived between the Amazon forest and my grandparents’ farm. It was really fantastic.”
Karen: “Yeah, amazing. Okay, second question. What sound or smell reminds you of home?”
Renata: “Tahitin, which is a little perfume. I can’t remember the brand now, but when I smell that perfume, I immediately think of my lunchbox. I think because I had a Holly Hobby lunchbox, as we all did in the seventies. My grandparents lived in Washington DC, and I used to get these fancy gifts that didn’t exist in Brazil, like a Holly Hobby metal lunchbox that I was the only one who had. It was so cute. I remember sitting on it, waiting for my mom to get in the car, and then getting in the car with her. And I think she sprayed me with that perfume before I went to school. So, it’s, yeah.”
Karen: “That’s so—”
Renata: “Isn’t it funny? Yeah, and oranges, too. There’s a type of orange that, if I smell it, takes me straight back to childhood.”
Karen: “Completely, and there are reasons for that. Our sense of smell is most associated with memory more than any other sense. We’ll talk about what’s happening there. The reason I asked you those questions is that the first one was intentionally vague. So, when I ask you to tell us about your childhood, your brain almost says, ‘What part? Childhood spans 20 years. Where do you want me to focus?’ And most often, responses are very similar to what you said: ‘I grew up here. I lived in this type of housing. These relatives were around me.’ Because we give a really general answer. It’s too hard to know where to focus. But when we ask something really specific, like about sound or smell, you immediately went to that smell of the perfume in the lunchbox, and there could be 10 different stories there. It made me think of my Holly Hobbie things and the thermos that you can never get open and someone had to come and open for you. This is what happens when we’re trying to think of a story and we’re under pressure or we’re just not sure what to tell. It’s like that first question, ‘What story can I tell for this recruiting moment?’ Our brains are like, ‘But what file do you want us to access? There are so many possible things. I don’t know.’ And constraints help you come up with ideas. So by narrowing the topic to sound or smell, it then allows you to come up with endless ideas that you could keep exploring.
So, when we start to create our toolkit, first, you want to identify a place to capture ideas. It might be an app, a spreadsheet, a notebook, post-its, whatever works for you. You want to have a place to put them because you want to focus on coming up with the ideas and not remembering them. Then, sit down and start asking yourself questions or prompts that are meant to constrain. Think about your personal life and think about maybe the first concert you went to, or what is something that you should have gotten rid of, but you just can’t part with? And you’re going to work through these different experiences. It’s a little slow at first, but then it gets faster. You’re just going to write a phrase or the idea. You’re not writing a full story. You’re not worrying about when you’re going to use it, how you’re going to use it, or who you’re going to tell it to. Your goal is to get a volume of ideas. Work through your professional life: What was your best experience? Best leader? Difficult moment? Hardest day? There are endless stories in there. As you move through the world, if there’s a documentary that you love, or an article you read, or a podcast, like notice those things that you have energy toward. Because what happens is you go back to this list when it’s time to prepare a list of stories, and you want to tell stories that you feel energy toward, because stories are an exchange of energy. Starting this list and having a dedicated place gives you something to come to when you know you’re going to be able to tell a story.
We’ll talk about the audience in a moment, but what you want to be able to do is go through this list and say, based on this audience and what I want them to experience, which one of these can I use to make this idea? Often, it is nothing on your list, but the act of having things on your list triggers a whole new idea that you hadn’t thought of, and it’ll help you get there. And once you start this, you create this habit. You then have this ongoing list that makes it so much easier anytime you’re going to tell a story to come up with one and generate new thinking.”
Renata: “Yes. So, the lesson here for the audience, as I see it, Karen, is this: if you are a professional, and you’re ambitious about your career, or you just want to make sure you have a job year in, year out, it is a good idea to capture the stories that come up every month, every year. Sit down and write down the great things that you’ve achieved in your job this month, the things that brought you joy, the things that you didn’t like so much, the achievements in terms of data and metrics. It may sound like a useless exercise right now, but then three years from now, when you lose your job, you will really want to remember the data, the achievements, and the things that brought you joy and things that didn’t, as you were reflecting. And, you know, because when you lose your job, and I see this often because that’s what I do, you go through a stage of grief.”
Karen: “Right.”
Renata: “And you wake up in the morning every day and forget that you don’t have a job anymore, and then you go through it all over again. You open your inbox, and there’s nothing there.”
Karen: “And it’s very hard in these moments to remember the wonderful things that you have done because you’re feeling stress, and stress constrains our ability to think. I would build on what you said with two things. Treat this like you should go in and update your CV every year because then it’s not a painful exercise to sit and do it. So yes, you should capture what you learned. Don’t just capture what the situation was and what made it complicated, because that’s going to be a part of your stories when you’re telling them in interviews, but you want to talk about the impacts, but also what you learned. The reason to use stories in the whole recruiting process is that it is building the interviewer’s understanding of you. As the candidate, you are helping them come away with what you want them to understand and know about you. If you don’t, you’re leaving it up to them to do their own interpretation. And we all have so many different experiences; they’re probably not going to come away with it the way you would fully want it. And so, by taking the opportunity to describe, ‘Here’s what the situation was, here’s why it was so complicated, here’s what I did, the impact, and what I learned,’ it helps them know what to do with you. It helps them start to see, ‘Can I see them for this role? Can I understand where they would go?’ It’s connecting the dots and building that understanding in a really important way. But even a step before those is to stop and think about what are three words or phrases that you want them to come away knowing about you. And don’t do like ‘conscientious’ because everybody does that. You want these to be memorable. So I might choose like, ‘I am a tour guide of storytelling. I’m going to take you to new destinations and you’re going to learn different things along the way.’ What’s going to happen is if I define these and I work these phrases into my answers like, ‘Well, you know, you can think of me like a tour guide of storytelling. Here’s what I faced. Here’s what I did.’ They’re going to remember that. They’re going to remember ‘tour guide of storytelling.’ And that’s going to help when there are several candidates in one day.”
Renata: “Yes, I think you touched on an interesting conundrum here for candidates: they’re very fearful of being niched down because they think that if they’re going to be niched down, they’re going to lose opportunities. And my biggest work is to educate them that being memorable is more important than being a generalist. And that the recruiter will identify opportunities that are maybe outliers to that niche and come to you and say, ‘I know you said you’re a tour guide of storytelling, but I have an interesting opportunity here, and your name came to my mind.’ But it’s, they still know that you have that niche. But they will then draw the dotted line towards something a little bit outside of that. I think that’s an easier game to play than you saying you can do too many things. ‘I can do strategic planning. I can do normal HR. I can do psychology.’ You know, like doing too much, it confuses the audience, right?”
Karen: “It does. And also, they’re going to niche you down in their minds, for better or worse. We all have different experiences. So, when we’re taking information in through our senses, they get stamped with emotions and stored in our long-term memory. This is where the sense of smell is really powerful, because we smell a fragrance that reminds us of a loved one or a memory, and it places us right back in that time. It’s because those experiences, where that sense of smell was stamped with those emotions.
So, it’s almost like, you know, when you’re taking a photo on your phone, immediately stamped on the photo is the date, the location, the f-stop, the size of the photo. Like, all these things are immediately there for recreating the photo without you doing anything. Something kind of similar happens in your brain as you are taking in experiences. They get stamped with emotions and stored in long-term memory. So, what happens when someone encounters someone new, when they’re interviewing someone for a job, when you’re trying to process data, because this goes beyond recruiting, subconsciously, our brain is going through this library of files and they’re trying to make sense of what’s in front of them.
Our brains hate for things to be incomplete. So, they are always trying to predict and make assumptions. The faster the brain figures out what something is, the faster it can conserve calories, which it always wants to have this slush fund to be able to keep the body moving and running efficiently. So, for better or worse, that means we are all making these assumptions about who people are and what they are and how they show up. And those assumptions are based on our experiences, and your experiences are different than mine and different from someone else’s.
So, when you’re not telling the story in your interviews, you are leaving it up to them to just use their own experiences to fill in the gap. When you tell a story, what you’re doing is connecting them to these other related files and helping them understand where you fit in, helping them recognize, ‘Okay, I can see what you would be contributing, where you would be adding value to the team, the organization. I can see that.’ And when you get to that part of ‘what I learned’ in your answer, after you’ve described the context, why it was hard, what you did, the impact, and what you learned, you can connect back to the role or what you desire. Because, so let’s use the tour guide of storytelling.
Let’s say I was going for a marketing role. I would say, ‘Keep thinking of me as a tour guide of storytelling.’ Whatever my project was, the impact, the result, and here’s what I learned from that. I can connect that back to the roles that I’m interested in, and that can minimize some of the niches where you feel like you’re being taken out of consideration for other things. But if you don’t do that, each person is going to fill in the gaps based on their own understanding, and some of that won’t be the way you would want it.”
Renata: “Yes, that’s so important in a job interview, and it’s something my candidates and listeners need to pay attention to because the information you’ve just shared, along with something you mentioned before about being niched down, is crucial. When there’s a big elephant in the room, like the situation with your eyes, right, the two-colored eyes, people are going to stop paying attention to what you’re saying and start thinking about other things. ‘What’s her accent? Where’s Renata from? Oh, look at her eyes. They’re different.’ Some things are very obvious, and I call them the elephants in the room. It could be the accent, age, being on the autism spectrum, or anything like that.
One of the hardest decisions we need to make as candidates is whether to bring it up and get it over and done with, or decide if it’s worth mentioning or not. My recommendation to my clients is always very tailored, but many times we have decided to bring it up. ‘You may be able to tell, I’m not sure, but I’m on the autism spectrum, and that’s my superpower. And these are the reasons why I can do this job so well. It’s because I have this and that.’ But it varies; some clients I have are diagnosed with ADHD. Some of them are comfortable sharing that, some are not yet, and maybe they don’t need to. Right?
So, I listened to one interview you’ve done before about the sharing of personal stories, and that really stuck with me. I wanted to ask you because some personal stories we may need to tell. I’ve worked with candidates who had to say, ‘You know, I transitioned two years ago. You will know that when you hire me because some of my old documents have my previous name.’ You know, like you have to bring it up. You don’t want to, but what can you do, right?”
Karen: “Let’s touch on a couple of layers to it. And if my mind goes blank, remind me. First, I want to talk about what’s happening in the interviewer’s brain. And then, I want to talk about what to consider when deciding whether you should tell a story or not, and how to do it. The interviewer’s brain will drift off just like our brains drift off, no matter how hard we try to focus and pay attention in a meeting, or maybe in university lectures, or as someone is reviewing data. Our brains drift off because our brain is lazy. The goal of the brain is not to keep you fully immersed and focused all day long.
The goal of the brain is to keep the body running, to keep all of your systems regulated, and to make sure that everything is good. And that’s why it is the broker of calories for the body. Some are non-negotiable, like keeping you breathing and all your systems running, and then there’s the bonus fund, which it chooses to allocate to effort, attention, and focus.
This is why we naturally drift off. Our brains aren’t meant to be fully immersed every minute of every day. It’s quite natural for us to pay attention, drift off, then pay attention again. So what’s happening in the interviewer’s brain is that you might start talking, and they might think, ‘Well, she has a different accent.’ Then it either continues that thought, ‘I wonder what that accent is. I wonder where she’s from,’ or it’s a very quick, ‘Oh, she has a different accent.’ The difference in how far they go down this tangent depends on what you’re saying.”
Renata: “Am I on?”
Karen: “A really well-told story makes the brain decide not to be lazy. It convinces the brain that we want to spend calories here. So, if I am describing to you a project in my last role and why it was challenging, and I’m telling this in a way where maybe there’s some unexpected pieces, maybe you’re relating it to, you know, the Holly Hobbie, right? We’re using these things that are so familiar that the brain is like, ‘Oh, pay attention.’ Then what happens in these moments is like, ‘Oh, she has a different accent, Holly Hobbie,’ and you’re back in it. And so, this is where storytelling is so impactful because you can get the listener’s brain to choose to spend calories when it is well told.
It’s not enough to just tell a story; the way you tell one is going to make a difference. And so, putting in tension, which is some unexpected details, helping build towards the conflict, and what you did, engaging the senses, all of these things done well, allows for that person to come back. So be mindful of that. Your goal is always to get them to spend calories.
Now, there will be some moments when you’re going to choose whether to share a personal story or not. And my mantra is that every story is personal, even if you’re telling someone else’s, but personal doesn’t mean private. And I do believe that audiences have to earn the right to hear our stories. We are not obligated to tell every single person every personal story about us. And I feel like that’s important to recognize.
I do think when you’re interviewing for a job, there are some circumstances, just like you described, that it will be helpful to share, to get in front of it because you want to control the understanding that goes in the interviewer’s head versus them filling in the gaps based on their understanding. And so, the key in these moments is you’re not just sharing whatever your news is, but you want to explain it in a way that is helping that interviewer understand what to think about it.
So they’re going to be concerned about what does this mean for the job? Can you do this work? Does this impact anything? Is there anything unique we need to consider? So, if you have ADHD and you are choosing to share that, you want to connect to what that is like so that the manager understands how to leverage you at your best. Or the person on the spectrum sharing, ‘This is my superpower, and here’s how you can take advantage of it.’ Right? You’re giving them the blueprint. That I think is the most helpful piece: control that narrative, choose it, and share it in a way that the manager knows what to do with it, and it’s not just leaving it up to their assumptions.
And if it is something that feels private, you don’t have to do it. I have a friend who is a breast cancer survivor. She was interviewing for a job and it’s a very big part of her identity. And she felt like, ‘I need to share this in the interview.’ And I said, ‘But why do you want to share it?’ And she realized she didn’t want to share it. And I said, ‘That’s okay. People have to earn your stories.’”
Renata: “No, that’s a very good point. I guess, you know, the sharing of stories is important in the context of job interviewing if they can negatively impact the outcome for me. So, if people will be biased one way or another, and I have felt that personally with my accent. Up until the last year I was looking for work, which was around 2016-17, they would ask where I was from and even ask if I had any plans to go back to my home country, even in very senior interviews. So, I now teach people not only to share where they’re from but also to share that they have their citizenship. So, for my clients in the US who are from other countries and have accents, I tell them, ‘You know, I’m originally from Germany, I got my American citizenship two years ago. I’m a dual citizen, and my goal is to get another job in New York because that’s where I’m raising my family and that’s where my partner’s from.’ So, you know, instead of making the recruiter’s mind think, ‘Do we want to invest in this guy because he might go somewhere else?’ you anticipate all of their second-guessing of you and just bring that forward, reinforcing that you are the best candidate and you are staying and not going anywhere. That’s the idea really in sharing personal stories only if they will add value towards you being shortlisted or appointed.”
Karen: “100%. Because we will be making these assumptions, right? The brain is trying to figure out what to do with you, and so I completely agree. You’re trying to minimize any assumptions that might go in the wrong direction.”
Renata: “The other thing that happens in recruitment and selection is that the storytelling format is so structured, that STAR format — Situation, Task, Action, Result — is built into software now. So, there are, I don’t know if you’re aware, I think it started in Australia and is now used worldwide, but there are professionals being interviewed by chat. A chat box opens up, and they have a question, and you have to give an answer, and there are behavioral questions, and the STAR format is being built into the software, the algorithm.”
Karen: “Yeah. Let’s talk about how to work with that. It’s not my favorite, but you can use it. Think of it like you’re cooking a dish and you have ingredients and you’re going to add some things to make it better. You can’t change the ingredients you have, but we can add to it. The STAR format can be very transactional. So when you’re describing the situation, I want you to, you know, this is the same, right? You’re giving the context for what’s happening. ‘T’ is for Task, right?”
Renata: “Yes, ‘T’ is for Task. With most of my clients, I change that to ‘Strategy’ because they’re senior executives. So it’s usually Situation, Strategy, Action, Results, or, but, you know, ‘Task’ is good too and the most used.”
Karen: “The interviewer needs to understand what was at stake. What would happen if you didn’t do anything? We’re not just talking about, ‘Yes, I had this job.’ You want to get into those complexities because that’s actually the conflict of your story. And that’s part of what’s going to make the brain pay attention, but it also gives it weight. We can’t assume that people know that. So, as you’re describing the strategy and why you’re there, what’s being asked of you, you want to really bring that forward because that’s going to make a difference.
Action, of course, you want to share what you did. If you have framed up what is making this complicated, that brings even more meaning to the action you’ve taken. Same with results. The thing in results, especially if you’re doing this in chat, is you have to add in what you’ve learned because the combination of adding that conflict and what you’ve learned makes it have a different landing for people experiencing it. Now they understand it in a more significant way.
In a chat, it’s hard. If you’re doing this live, you can try to work in details that are going to be very familiar to people and make sure they’re following along. So, the Holly Hobbie example was a great one. As you’re describing the situation and the challenge, if there’s something that feels relatable that you can connect to what the interviewer understands, that’s going to have their brain pay attention. When you’re describing what you’ve learned, that’s not just about you. It could be what you learned about leading. It’s a chance to think differently about the future or strategy. There are so many different ways to play with these elements and help really elevate the STAR format to be that much more meaningful for the people on the receiving end.”
Renata: “Yes, that’s great. And another thing that makes recruitment these days so hard, and we can’t not talk about it, is the fact that most interviews are done just like this podcast, you know, online. The technology adds a really different flavor to your ability to connect. Right?
So, if you and I were face to face, we would be mimicking each other’s body language, connecting more intuitively. I would be able to tell more clearly if you were done talking or ready to go just by the way you position your body. With the video format and online meeting format, it’s a bit harder.
Do you have any tips on how to deal with technology during storytelling? And it could be for job interviews, but it could be for presentations as well.”
Karen: “Yeah, the first thing I’m going to show you is this little fidget toy I have. Okay. Okay. I’ve been playing with it below the camera, and you have no idea I’ve been doing this. So sometimes we feel anticipation or a little anxious for some of these things. I choose this one because it’s quiet, it’s rubber, and you can’t hear it, but it gives me something to do. Now, I try to be mindful that I don’t want it to show up in my upper body, and I want to express and use my body. But, that is one of the benefits. There is a lot that can be happening down here that can allow you to calm or regulate yourself. I have another squeeze toy, so make sure you’re not making noise, but if something like that is going to help you, plan for it and do it. So right now, I’m squeezing that ball below the camera, and you have no idea. If something like that is going to help you, plan for that and do it. The second thing, true for in-person or virtual, is to have water. If possible, have it be something where you have to unscrew the cap, because we feel an extra sense of pressure when we’re asked a question and trying to think of an answer when we’re on camera. Our brain works slightly differently than if we’re in person. It’s a little bit harder. You are allowed to stop and think, and great ways to do that are to say, ‘Let me just take a moment to think about that.’ It’s hard because I know some of the interviews are timed, and you just have a split second to do it. But to the extent you can, allow yourself to do it. The benefit of water is if you’re having a hard time getting your thoughts going, stop, pick up your water, unscrew the top, take a drink. This buys you seconds where you can then say to yourself, ‘What is one thing I can add here?’ and get your brain back moving. Additionally, you’ll have notes and stuff. The biggest thing is that my personality has been coming through in this session today. I’m using facial expressions, raising my eyebrows, smiling, laughing, leaning forward. You see me move my hands. It’s not the same as if we’re in person, but I’m also not sitting very tightly, and you get none of that. You can bring your personality through and use your inflection. Test your headsets, make sure your audio quality is good. You don’t want any of that detracting, but do the same things you would do in person. Use gestures that will change the inflection in your voice. Try playing with the pace and volume of your voice. The way you construct and tell the story isn’t any different, but it’s all of the visual mediums that you can take advantage of being on camera that work. And I will tell you, I stand. Standing puts more air into my lungs. I’m going to be that much more animated. I’m going to sound more confident because I can fill my lungs with more air and speak in a stronger voice. And so that often is helpful too when you can be standing and fully focused on the camera at eye level. You don’t want them looking up at you. Those are always best and helpful.”
Renata: “Yes, if you’re listening to this in audio, I strongly recommend that you go to our YouTube channel and find the video so that you can see all the things we’ve been talking about. And this is really important. I think even the background is so important. It can tell a story. Your background has your book, it has a pot plant, and I think it’s important for us to pay attention to these details these days because they are going to tell a story about you. And talking about your book, I had a question about your book. Where did the title ‘The Perfect Story’ come from? Why did you choose ‘The Perfect Story’?”
Karen: “I did a TED talk a few years ago, and the last line of the TED talk is, ‘Don’t wait for the perfect story. Take your stories and make them perfect.’ So it’s a little bit of a play on words. The perfect story doesn’t exist. It’s not sitting on a shelf ready for you to buy it. We think that we see people who are such gifted storytellers and we think, ‘I can’t do that. They just naturally do that.’ But the secret is, they did not. That story became perfect because they worked at it and they practiced it. So, I want people to recognize that anyone can tell a great story by taking their stories and making them perfect.”
Renata: “I love it. And your TED talk is fascinating. I really enjoyed listening to it. I’ve listened to some of your other interviews as well. I think your book is perfect for my audience. I will have a link to it in the episode show notes. Storytelling for corporate professionals is undervalued. And there aren’t professional development programs for it. I remember when I arrived in Australia, I had a great boss and mentor who made me do half a dozen English courses. You know, he wanted my English to be perfect. And thanks to him, it’s as good as it will get. But storytelling, thankfully, is part of my family’s DNA. So that came naturally, but I think there’s so much that you can learn by observing how others tell stories, observing the best stories that you enjoy watching or listening to, and seeing how they’re framed. Then deciding, ‘Okay, how can I adapt this to my personal style, my professional environment, and my audience?’
We didn’t talk about something that I think is also important. I mean, we kind of did. When I decided storytelling was important for me professionally was when I was a research officer applying for grants. This is important for the audience because when you’re going through a selection process, different individuals will be reading your story. Normally, the first thing is going to be a bot in the ATS software, and then the first person will probably be an HR talent acquisition person. She’s in her mid-20s, young, with keywords and a position description that she’s trying to match you with. Then it might be her boss, the HR partner that deals with the hiring manager, and then it’s the hiring manager. Understanding that you need to speak differently to each one of those and include the keywords because of the software. Then ask different questions, let’s say, from the first call from the talent acquisition manager and the final call from the hiring manager. The questions are different. Just those nuances that are so obvious to me and to you as well. It’s not as obvious to my audience yet. I’d love your views on that.”
Karen: “On how to tailor the story each time, or?”
Renata: “How to prepare yourself and think about those different stages. I don’t know. I might be asking too much.”
Karen: “Yeah, yeah, no, that’s totally fair. And really, what we didn’t touch on is where stories start. Because stories always start with the audience. Even when you know the story you’re going to tell, which is going to be about your career and different experiences in your career, your story always starts with your audience because you’re going to tell it differently each time.
So, when you know you have an interview, you will know who some of the people are and you won’t know who some of the people are. What you walked through is very helpful in understanding the levels of screening. For the bot interview, the goal is to pass through the keywords and demonstrate the experience to get to the next level. The junior recruiter is that next level, wanting to see those things. So, you want to be able to tell a story that they can relate to. And then, you’re going to get into a much more in-depth story as you get to the hiring manager and colleagues.
What you want to do, though, for each of these rounds is prepare four sentences to help you get really clear on what you want the experience to be. So, you are going to ask yourself, ‘What do I want the audience to think or feel?’ and write a sentence for that. So, what is that internal shift? It might be confidence towards you, intrigue, or excitement. Second, ‘What do you want them to know or do as a result of your story?’ Most likely, that is to move you to the next round, extend an offer, or maybe have a conversation. You’re trying to get to what is that outcome you want for the audience? What do you want them to know, think, feel, or do?
Then, write a sentence for ‘What is their mindset today?’ Fourth, ‘What might be an obstacle?’ With the bot, it’s only going to have a limited number of words and things that it’s been programmed for. Now we’re on to the junior HR person. You want this person to feel positive towards you, to see that you have the experience. The mindset today might be that they don’t know anything about the industry or enough about your experience, which could also be an obstacle. How are you going to relate your stories to them?
So, you start doing this through each of the layers, and you would get more specific as you know the people. Then, you start preparing your ‘Tell me about a time’ and your toolkit of ideas. As you’re laying out your model, consider what you’re doing in your story to help them move forward. By the time you get to the learning and what you want the interviewer to take away, that should map back to what you said you wanted the audience to know, think, feel, or do. If you haven’t done that by the time you write the story and get to the results and the learning, then you need to put more into the story. You need to structure the story differently so that you can connect the dots back. Those four questions will help you prep, not just for interviews, but for any communication or meeting.”
Renata: “I love that. And if you’re listening and thinking, ‘Oh, this is such hard work,’ it’s not. It will be hard work the first few times you do it, but then it will become a natural way of preparing. You won’t need to do as much preparation in the future because you’ll just naturally go into those questions in your mind.”
Karen: “Yeah, and they’re not meant to be lengthy. It’s meant to be a five-minute exercise.”
Renata: “Yeah, excellent. I love this conversation so much. I can’t wait to release it. I can’t wait for the audience to hear you, Karen. Thank you so much for making the time today. I’m delighted to have had this chat with you and to be connected with you now. Is there anything else that you want to share with the audience before we go?”
Karen: “It can feel uncomfortable sharing stories in interviews. It can feel a bit like ‘me, me, me.’ But the point is, you’re using them to build the understanding in the interviewer. And the more you use them, you’ll start to notice what people respond to, and hopefully, you’ll tell more of them.”
Renata: “Thank you so much once again. It’s been great getting to know you.”
Karen: “Likewise.”
