Renata (00:43)
What you’re about to hear is an episode of the podcast with a conversation between two coaches that love what they do. have very similar philosophies on how to work with clients to get the best results for them. One myself, I’m based here in Australia. I have clients all over the world. The other one, Kyle is based in the U S he has an expertise for tech professionals, but I’m pretty sure he’s expanding that right now.
Kyle has a massive following on LinkedIn. Over 200,000 people follow him on LinkedIn. He writes for Forbes. He has a great thought leadership and framework to support his clientele. And together we discuss things like diversity and inclusion, tech jobs in demand, storytelling techniques, changing…
career paths completely going from having a corporate job to having your own business. So many different things and avenues that you can hopefully identify with and be like a little sponge and sort of sink it all in and see what works for you in your career planning and your job search journey. Enjoy this conversation and let me know what you think. Get in touch with me, send me a DM.
comment on my post and I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did.
Renata (02:09)
I believe that you and I started full-time coaching at about the same time. Okay. Did you start in 2018 or 2019?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (02:16)
Okay.
2017 I believe so around the same time
Renata (02:25)
2017, before me then. Okay, okay.
I would love to hear that story. How did you decide to become a coach? What happened?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (02:35)
Yes,
I started on Fiverr, the online marketplace. So I literally charged $5 to review resumes, to write LinkedIn about sections, and it was literally just supposed to pay for Starbucks in college. And my dad’s advice, he doesn’t remember, but was to double my prices every time I had a wait list. So go from $5 to $10 to 20.
Renata (02:38)
yes.
Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (03:03)
And that turned into a real business. I was doing 30 hours a week on top of my full-time job. And I ended up in 2017 leaving to do that full-time. And now it’s 2025 and I can’t believe it’s turned into this business that I love.
Renata (03:15)
Is it up?
And
I’m assuming you’re not on Fiverr anymore? Okay. Okay. And you, I love everything about your marketing and how you market yourself. It’s quite funny because your website is CafeNatedKyle, is that what it is? I talk about coffee on my podcast all the time, but funny story, I drink decaf now. Like I’ve been…
Dr. Kyle Elliott (03:24)
I am not, no. I’m not on Fiverr anymore. I left that quite a few years ago.
Yes, yes.
Mmm.
Renata (03:49)
Decaffeinated. So if I was going to follow your lead, I would probably have a website decaffeinatedrenada.com. That doesn’t sound exciting or sexy at all. I get it. But, so there’s this sort of energy about you. There’s also the, the beginning of your about section or your services section starts with, I offer trauma informed career coaching, and you also focus on tech.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (03:57)
love that.
Renata (04:19)
I would love to talk about those two things. What does it mean to be a trauma informed coach?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (04:25)
So trauma-informed coaching
is being aware that people have trauma. All of us have experienced trauma, whether that’s big T or little t. My job as a trauma-informed coach is not to process that trauma with people. That’s the role of a therapist. But to instead be aware that we have trauma. And then when those emotions, when those feelings related to trauma come up, my job is to help people regulate those and say, OK, we’re aware of that. Now, can we honor and acknowledge those feelings and then set them aside?
Renata (04:46)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (04:55)
be
able to be present as we navigate your job search, as we write your resume. Oftentimes people think, I’m just writing my resume, but actually maybe your mom’s voice comes up or a toxic boss and being able to say, okay, here are some feelings coming up. Let’s regulate your body. Let’s regulate anything negative that may be coming up and then set aside that trauma for the moment so we can focus on your job search and your career.
Renata (05:22)
Yeah, that’s wonderful. It’s lovely. I’m just really excited to hear that, you know, we have coaches like you who have such a are so mindful and intentional about their coaching and how they do it. I mainly work with professionals in their 40s, 50s. My oldest client was 70 years old. So, you know, I know, like, it’s lovely, right, that people really want to be active and working and
and play a part in society and not retire, I But when you reach that sort of tipping point of your career, when you are at that crossroad, when you sort of, you actually are still informed by trauma and by culture and by the way that you’ve been nurtured. Sometimes you forget your nature, right? So it’s really interesting to see the awakening that…
Dr. Kyle Elliott (06:13)
Mm-hmm.
Renata (06:18)
can happen later in one’s careers. And I’m wondering if you have experienced that with your clients.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (06:24)
yes. And I love what you said, informed by trauma. There’s that trauma that’s there. And sometimes people are aware of it. Oftentimes they’re not. And then they’re having a conversation. Maybe it’s salary negotiation. They’re hmm, I’m realizing, Kyle, maybe there’s this role of where I was taught not to speak up, or maybe I’m not supposed to disagree with someone. And they’re realizing there’s this trauma there and that’s impacting it. And then our job isn’t to unpack that. My job isn’t to do that and process all that.
Renata (06:30)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (06:52)
But instead say, okay, let’s be aware of that, acknowledge it, see how it’s playing a part here, and then move forward with your job search. And it can be really powerful when clients allow you and me as coaches to help them navigate that process.
Renata (06:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm. Yeah. And why tech? Is it because of where you are in the world now? You know, for those who don’t know Kyle, we have to follow him on LinkedIn. But you are on the west coast of the US. There’s a lot of tech companies there. Was that a strategic choice or? OK.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (07:22)
Mm-hmm.
It was not strategic at all. Looking back,
it looks super strategic. Like right during tech taking off, I was in it, but it was 100 % by accident. I was in the Bay Area. I went to school in San Francisco. So when I was growing on Fiverr, when I was working with classmates, a lot of my clients were getting jobs at Twitter, now X, Facebook, LinkedIn, Google, as they were blowing up. So I accidentally developed this niche in tech.
Renata (07:30)
Thank
Okay.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (07:52)
I always wanted to work in nonprofits or in healthcare, public health, maybe be a doctor and make a difference. And now I got to do that through tech. So typically when I work with people, it’s not just a software engineer, but it’s someone who’s making a difference for their work. They might be the only person of color on their team, or they might be doing some really important diversity, equity, inclusion work. So usually they’re making a difference to their work and they’re saying, yes, I want to work in tech Kyle and I want to make
a meaningful positive difference through my work as well. So I get it indirectly impact literally billions of people sometimes for the work that my clients are doing.
Renata (08:23)
Mmm.
Yeah. I don’t know if you and your clients have had enough time to process the things that are happening this week when it comes to diversity and inclusion and the speech that your new president has just done. And he mentioned that specifically. What do you think will happen next in terms of your experience dealing with clients from diverse backgrounds? How can
And how can job candidates looking for work if they’re neurodiverse, if they’re queer, how would you recommend that they go about if they’re in the US specifically?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (09:10)
Part of my role is to help people find hope. I’m often asked, is there a magic wand or some tip I’m going to give people? Part of it is finding that hope. So is it surrounding yourself with other people or a community that can uplift you? I also never encourage people to self-disclose if they’re queer or mental health before they feel comfortable and there is that psychological safety. Some people feel comfortable disclosing that throughout the job search. They have that privilege or that luxury to do it. Other people, they don’t feel comfortable. They don’t feel safe doing it.
Renata (09:30)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (09:40)
So I always like starting with that whenever I do a podcast or a speaking engagement. So please don’t feel like you have to self-disclose before you’re ready. However, if you do have that luxury or privilege, you might consider doing that throughout the job search and say, okay, there’s a lot going on around the world, especially in the US. Do I want to be at a company where I’m going to feel unsafe or like I don’t belong? And you can assess that throughout the job search process. Are there people who look like me at this company?
Can I ask some questions and not just do you support people like me, but ask for some examples? If you’re interviewing for a company, they’re likely going to ask you, tell me about a time. You can do that of the interviewer as well, of the hiring manager. Can you tell me about a time how you supported your LGBTQ plus employees and assess the culture and see if you can see yourself working at that company?
Renata (10:31)
Okay,
I would like to run a few things by you because you’re such an expert and I’m like, I want to make sure that I’m doing the right thing, right? A few years ago, I interviewed a friend of mine, Jacob Thomas, and we discussed, you know, issues with transgender clients where they have to eventually disclose, for example, if they changed their names. So we had that discussion.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (10:35)
Of course.
Mm-hmm.
Renata (10:59)
I will link below for those of you who are interested in that conversation. Jacob is like a true absolute expert worldwide, not just in Australia. And it was an interesting interview. When I am working with clients that are queer and even also neurodiverse, we discuss, this obvious? And should we bring up the elephant in the room doing the…
recruitment process straight away so that we control the narrative rather than just let it play in people’s heads and nobody’s talking about it. Right. So sometimes I will say to my client, frankly, I can tell like it’s better that you just bring it up because if I was the interviewer and I’m not trained, I don’t know what to say. I’m, you know, I’m just assuming things in my mind. So if you bring it up and control the narratives, let’s
Dr. Kyle Elliott (11:49)
Mm-hmm.
Renata (11:55)
prep it, let’s play it out in this consultation so that you feel comfortable in the meeting. Let’s think about a few options of what can happen next. Right. But like you said, if it’s not obvious, do not mention anything. And most importantly, never ever add hobbies and interests to your resume. Like this goes to all of my clients. Nobody, it’s no one’s business what you do outside work.
If you go skiing or play tennis or if you do drag, it’s no one’s business. So do not add your hobbies. You know what I mean? Like, I hate that it could be a factor. Plus or minus in sort of, oh, they play tennis, I play tennis. Let’s hire this person. Right. Or like, oh, they do drag. Oh, that’s weird. I don’t know. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don’t want it to be part of the decision making process. Am I making sense? Do you have anything else to add?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (12:46)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I think it makes so
much sense. And I think it’s really thinking about that organization and what makes sense for you as an individual. Maybe you don’t want to work somewhere where you can’t be out as someone who does drag. So maybe you might want to include that as an interest or a hobby. If you’re like, this is really important to me, and I’m going to do that. So that might be something you include on your resume or in the interview to kind of if you have that luxury of weeding ones out, or maybe you don’t have that luxury. So I think it’s kind of that.
Renata (12:53)
Okay.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (13:19)
personal decision of what you want to weed in or weed out throughout the interview process and through the application process as well.
Renata (13:25)
That is a good point. I love
that. Yeah. It’s almost like, you know, what I just said, but then there’s this exception here where you, you know, you, you play it by ear, depending on who you’re talking to or who you’re applying for, and then use it to your advantage. the company has a diversity values that are sort of on their website that you can tell.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (13:33)
John.
Yeah.
Renata (13:55)
that they actually are proactively hiring.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (13:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I agree
with the interest in hobbies. Often they’re not relevant when people include them and I always put an asterisk for clients. say, if you’re including it in your mind or you might even write it on your resume, delete it before you send it, but say, here’s why I’m putting this here for you. Everything on that resume, on your LinkedIn, in your interview, you want to have a reason you’re doing it. Just don’t put it to put it, but actually have a reason why you’re including that. So my partner, he’s a passholder to Disneyland like me.
So we put that on his resume. Part of the reason is he doesn’t want to work somewhere where they’re going to have really bad work-life balance, where we can’t go to Disneyland a lot. He’s also in fundraising. So when he works with donors, it’s a lot about creating that magical experience for them. He’s been trained and had people come in from Disneyland and train them before. So it’s this great talking point that he’s able to bring up in interviews. But if you just put it on there and didn’t connect any dots, people would be like, this is weird. Why do you have Disneyland on here?
So really connecting those dots and having a reason anytime you mention something is really important.
Renata (15:00)
Okay, which that’s wonderful. I love that. I would love to have a pass to Disneyland. Sounds fantastic. That leads me to ask you a couple of things about the storytelling, right? Because you need to have those tools in order to weave that thread of, you know, joining the dots for people, not assuming that they will join the dots. I love the video that you’ve just done on your LinkedIn.
about storytelling to sort of take you out of that freeze zone in job interviews. So how can the listeners craft good stories that they can use in their recruitment process?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (15:46)
One of my favorite ways to craft stories is to ask some friends who don’t work with you, what are some interesting things I’ve told you about work? That way you know it’s really memorable. So you can ask some friends, some family members, anyone you tell about work, see what they remember. And then this way you know it’s a really memorable story and say, what have I told you that’s really interesting? And you might be surprised what stories they are.
This is important though, because you want that interviewer who’s then interviewed five people, had 40 meetings, and then is making that hiring decision. You want to know that they’re going to remember your story. So this is a fun way to be like, okay, what are some great stories? And then what I would do is I would get a posted and write down those stories very briefly. Okay. That story of when we had that new software implemented, that story of that difficult client that came in crying, whatever the stories are.
And then when you’re asked interview questions, it’s almost like multiple choice. You just go through and say, which of my five stories is closest? Like a politician, at least like a lot of politicians in the US, you just go to your story and make it work.
Renata (16:47)
Good night.
Kyle, do you help your clients with things like the star format for answering questions?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (16:59)
Yes, I love the star format, situation, task, action, result. Similar to those hobbies or anything you put on the resume. I like adding a T at the end, tie it back. A lot of times people just give a story and then you’re kind of left with, that’s a great story. How does that relate to us? Maybe you’re coming from a startup and we’re a big company. I don’t really get this story. So I…
Renata (17:01)
Okay.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (17:24)
encourage people to use their hand. You have your situation, your task, your action result, but you don’t want to forget your pinky. What is that tie back? Why are you sharing this story with us today? And it can even be a sentence or two where you say, the reason I’m telling you about this, and then connect the dots for that employer.
Renata (17:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I love that. Can I admit something to you? I don’t like the star format.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (17:48)
Ooh, I’d love to hear what you use instead or in a different format.
Renata (17:50)
I still like, look, I
have my own stuff that I do and I do, of course, will have, I’ll have to practice the STAR format because so much of the recruitment process is tied up into behavior questions and expectations on how you have to answer it. What, what upsets me about the STAR process is that people, I mean, by people, mean, job candidates get so tied up that it sounds mechanical.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (18:18)
Mm-hmm.
Renata (18:19)
It sounds like it sounds forced. The interviewer can see that you’re just like following it like to the to a point where it sounds a little bit fakey. But I think that your pinky, you know, the tie it all up might sort of break that sort of crystallized idea of how answering the question can be. And maybe that sort of tail end might sort of smooth.
things out a bit. I don’t know. I kind of like that. I might have to use that as well.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (18:48)
Mm-hmm.
I love it. think it makes it so much easier. I encourage people to,
if you’re prepping, it’s okay to write the whole answer out when you’re practicing. But when you go into the interview, please, please, please, it sounds obvious, don’t have a script in front of you. I’ve done interview prep with people and sometimes they’re literally reading off the script. I’m like, no, no, no. And they’re like, is that bad? I’m like, yes, we don’t want you reading off the script. Instead, maybe have a word or two for each letter. Situation, crying client, task, resolve.
Renata (19:00)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (19:22)
So then you can’t read off of it and instead you’re forced to improv and it comes off more naturally. Unless you’re going for an interview as like a news anchor or an actor, it’s okay to say to have a transition or two. And if you’re saying a lot, okay maybe you wanna work on that. But it’s okay to take a moment to breathe and have to think so then you’re not coming off as scripted.
Renata (19:22)
Mm-hmm.
you
I love that. will one day, I will record a podcast episode, maybe solo, but maybe this is it, where I discuss filler words, right? So I love that. But in the meantime, whilst I haven’t really done it, and I’ve been saying this for a couple of years, I usually recommend an episode from Seth Godin’s podcast where he discusses filler words, right? And the fact that here, you don’t know this person.
People in Australia know who I’m talking about. Annabel Crabb, amazing journalist, really sophisticated with her words. She uses so many ums. And I think it’s kind of an Australian English thing, like in the UK, lot of really sort of intellectual people do a lot of But in an interview, it can show lack of executive presence. So, you know, it’s really interesting that people should accept white space as well between.
the question and your answer or between one of your ideas and another, it’s okay to have a bit of a pause. That episode, I will send it to you. That episode from Seth Godin is fantastic. And it’s also an episode where he does this meta analysis of bringing the elephant in the room if it’s obvious. So it sort of ties these two ideas together. Look at me.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (20:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Renata (21:15)
I love that. think that what probably gets people in interviews is the lack of practice. So people like, you you or me, you know, having those preparations. Do people book you a lot for interview perhaps? Yeah, me too.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (21:23)
Mm-hmm.
yeah, that’s a lot of the work I do is that interview prep
and I find what is missing sometimes with some coaches is they’re just doing a mock interview and that’s it. And what’s missing is sometimes that strategy figuring out, do you really have that storytelling down? Do you know what’s unique or different about you? You can do a mock interview with a friend, but that’s different than a coach who’s really there, who’s objective and who can guide you through that. And I think that’s missing and that’s why it’s great to work with a coach who doesn’t know you and can say,
You didn’t mention this thing and a friend may already know that and they don’t know to bring in that feedback or that guidance.
Renata (22:04)
Awesome. think we work along the same lines. Do you talk about coffee?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (22:09)
yes, I love coffee and how do we caffeinate your answers?
How do we caffeinate this story and take it to the next level?
Renata (22:15)
Yeah,
that’s awesome. Even though I decaf listeners, I also, you know, have a whole coffee strategy for job interviews. That’s fantastic. The other thing that I love about you and the way that you present yourself on LinkedIn and your public persona is this real focus on mental health. Where, you know, did that begin for you?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (22:42)
say it was my own journey with mental health. I would say used to have chronic migraines now because now they’re mostly resolved. For about five years from sophomore year of high school to sophomore year of college, I these really chronic migraines and then I eventually went to see a therapist. Well, I went to see doctors.
all the time and they kind of figure out what was wrong. And then finally, a doctor recommended I see a therapist and a psychiatrist and within minutes they’re like, this is all because of anxiety and stress. So as soon as we started treating that anxiety, the stress, the OCD, my migraine started dissipating. It went from the literally daily migraines to now maybe once a month I get a migraine. That’s a lot less severe too. I used to be bed bound at times and stuff and now
it’s a lot less severe. So recognizing once we started paying attention to my mental health, I encourage other people to pay attention to it as well.
Renata (23:44)
That’s amazing. That was your brain probably overworking like, yeah, a hundred percent. You are in a very important part of the world in terms of innovation, creativity, technology, but also a place where lots of
Dr. Kyle Elliott (23:48)
yeah.
Renata (24:05)
ideas have floated around how to de-stress workers. I’ll give you an example. My son did two internships in San Francisco during his university years. And he said, mom, if I was working for too long, a guy would come in and try to massage my shoulders and tell me to stand up and go to the company gym, because I had been sitting down for too long.
So that is kind of a, know, before the pandemic, there was a lot of that sort of workplaces with ping pong tables and little cocoons where you could go take a nap and stuff like that. I don’t think in my view with the clients that I have in that area that it helped them with their stress. I think the stress was more about the politics at work and about the long hours that they had to pull in startups and stuff like that.
How do you think your clients are dealing with stress in this post pandemic situation? Being asked to go back to work full time. Do you have those situations happening with your clients at the moment?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (25:11)
Yeah.
Two words come to mind, not well. A lot of them are not dealing with it well. It’s very stressful. I think the biggest thing is there’s just not realistic expectations for the workloads people have. Oftentimes people come to me and they’re like, how do I manage my time better? And I look at the number of meetings they have, sometimes three or four meetings scheduled for the same time and they’re required to be at all of them. It’s just literally not realistic workloads some of these people have, including executives.
So it’s coming down from the top and it’s just not realistic workloads. So part of it is just kind of communication and boundaries and saying, is there any boundaries or communication we can set here? Or are you literally being set up for failure here and for burnout? And what’s in our control here? And what part of it is literally there’s just no way to get all this work done? And what’s a realistic expectation we can set up? Here’s what you can get done.
And literally, it’s impossible, and I hate that word, but like, here’s what’s possible to get done in 80 hours a week, and there’s literally no way to get more of this done as a human.
Renata (26:20)
Yeah. Kyle, for those that are asked in 2025 to come back to the office full time five days a week, and they haven’t done that for, I don’t know, five, six years now, what would you recommend them to do? Do you think that there is still room for negotiations or if they have to go full time to the office, what would be your advice for them to manage their stress levels?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (26:48)
I think there’s some jobs where it makes sense to go into the office. My dad’s a delivery driver, so there’s no way for him to work remotely. But for a lot of jobs, they can be done remotely or at least hybrid. I think trying to negotiate with your boss is smart and figuring out is there a way to negotiate this. And at the same time, sometimes it’s going to start at the top. There’s just no negotiation. But a lot of my clients have been able to figure out, what’s the bare minimum that I have to come in? One of my clients is at a tech company, and it’s once every other.
week and if they come in at least once every two weeks, then they don’t get fired. And they’re like, what is the true bare minimum? And kind of figuring that out to negotiate in that can be really powerful. And then saying, what’s the alternative? If I don’t do this, what happens? And that can be frustrating. But if you have that luxury to negotiate that say, okay, what happens if I don’t do that can be powerful as well.
Renata (27:42)
Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (27:43)
I think also figuring out what are your options? What are other ways to take care of yourself? Is it using the commuter bus available to you? Is it getting a housekeeper? Is it getting meal prep? Are there other ways that you might be able to adjust things in your life now that you have this extra hour or two hour a day commute on your plate?
Renata (28:02)
Yeah, you’re right.
Yeah, it’s something that the delegation of household tasks is sometimes people forget to do that and they think that they have to do it all. I struggle with that personally as well. So I 100 % agree that a cleaner can be great for your mental health.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (28:10)
Mm-hmm.
Renata (28:28)
So it’s a good investment. I once read a book that said it’s a cleaner and a good couch. Excellent for your mental health. Yeah. Now, one thing that I have experienced working with clients in your neck of the woods is that sometimes they’re not in tech, but they want to be in tech. That happens in Australia as well, because they see so much potential. And when we look at job ads,
Dr. Kyle Elliott (28:33)
Mmm.
I love that.
Mm-hmm.
Renata (28:57)
let’s say product management or project management, they think, I’ve done that, but not in tech, but I know how to do all of these things. I will apply, but they don’t hear back. Do you have clients that have that misunderstanding of what companies in tech are looking for because the job ads are not very clear?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (29:21)
Yeah, a lot of them are vague because they are open to other people, but there’s so much competition. It’s one of the most competitive industries. Part of why I like it. Part of it is the good people are doing. Part of it is that competition. You’re competing with people in the industry who are unemployed. You’re competing with people in the industry who are employed and passively looking or who are getting sourced. You’re competing with everyone who wants a break into tech. So it’s just competition, competition, competition. So if you want a break in, you have to be really clear about.
your skills align and be able to speak that language. It’s like going from kind of English to Spanglish or something. It’s not a full translation. A lot of your skills probably align. But if they’re saying the word enterprise and you don’t have the word enterprise on there, you might be able to read between the lines. But that recruiter that’s going through a bunch of resume is maybe hundreds or thousands for a role. They’re not going to connect the dots. And that’s what I see is missing a lot. People say, I have that on there.
on my resume or my LinkedIn, I read through and yes, it’s on there, but I have to kind of read between the lines. And I think that’s what’s missing a lot of the times. People haven’t connected the dots for the reader.
Renata (30:28)
Yeah. And Australia is a under-populated country. So a very popular role here will have like 100 applications, whereas my clients in the US are competing with 400, 500 candidates. And you can even see that on LinkedIn. It’s overwhelming, isn’t it? Yeah.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (30:46)
You
Yes.
Yes, it’s so much competition.
Renata (30:56)
is the ATS system and the understanding of how the applicant tracking system work the only way to get filtered through.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (31:05)
No, I mean, I think part of it is making sure your resume is parsed correctly by that applicant tracking system. A lot of it is also recruiters finding you. So recruiters may reach out to you. just spoke with a headhunter two weeks ago and he said 60 % of, I’m finding my post-it, 60 % of the candidates that they hired was them finding that candidate on LinkedIn. Them going on LinkedIn and searching and finding candidates.
So a lot of people aren’t just applying for roles, but they’re being found because their profile’s optimized. Another 30 % was people that they’ve hired before for roles, and another 10 % was actually people in their network of their candidates. So their candidates referring other people. So highlighting that value of networking. So I think people think, okay, I could just call it apply. Some people think that’s where they have to spend their effort. Other people think it’s just networking, but I think of it like a pie.
Is there four or five different areas we could focus your job search efforts? So kind of like the stock market, at least in the US, you don’t want to just put all of your money in one stock, but diversify and say, okay, let me apply for some jobs. Let me network. Let me update my LinkedIn. Let me talk to recruiters. So then I can diversify my efforts. And at least some of these hopefully will have a ROI or return on investment.
Renata (32:22)
100 % it checks with the data that I have here. I have on record on this podcast that about 80 % of the candidates that go through to the second round and the next rounds did not apply. They were found or they were in the database to begin with. 80 % is a high number. I had another recruiter who said 70%. So yeah, it’s really interesting the misunderstanding.
And the lack of knowledge between what’s happening in recruitment that recruiters know that you and I know and the professionals, they don’t know that. So I had a consultation yesterday with a client and she sent me lots of questions. So I knew what she wanted to achieve. I went straight into optimizing her LinkedIn to achieve her goals. And she interrupted me and said, I think you didn’t understand what I wanted to do. And I’m like,
I know exactly what you want to do. And then I had to stop and explain to her, go back to the basics and say to her exactly what you just said. You have to have an optimized LinkedIn because they will find you. You don’t have to go after them as much as you think.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (33:38)
Yeah, and I think there’s just
a lot of misinformation out there because anyone can say that they’re a career coach, at least in the US it’s unregulated. Anyone can say they’re a career coach, give advice, provide misinformation, misleading information or just completely unfactual information. And then it spreads like wildfire. So one can share something on TikTok or anywhere else and then it’ll just be shared, shared, shared. And a lot of people aren’t fact checking it to see if it’s correct.
Renata (33:47)
We’re done. Yeah.
Hmm. From your understanding of what’s happening in the tech world. And, and I know that there is a lot of professionals in the job market just waiting for the jobs to come up. mean, despite the fact that there were some horrible announcements this week, there were also some announcements about potential new jobs coming up right around your area.
What do you think will be the professionals that will be most demand in tech for 2025?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (34:37)
Yeah.
AI, we are seeing huge trends in AI on the uptick or AI related stuff. So generative AI, ML, all of that. And then people jobs, those things that can’t be outsourced, managing people, processes, strategy, higher level of thinking. You mentioned that product marketing, program management, those things. I like telling clients, asking yourself, can a robot do this? And if it can’t, those types of jobs, I’m seeing a lot more posted.
on job boards. Right before this, was in a coaching session with a client and we went through a job board and he’s like, this is a lot of AI. This is a lot of program management, a lot of product marketing. Those are the types of roles I think we’re going to keep seeing grow throughout this year.
Renata (35:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, for those of you listening and you heard AI and you rolled your eyes, we’re not just talking about computer scientists. We are talking about philosophers, lawyers, linguistics, ethnographers, social scientists that are willing to embrace AI as their topic of expertise so that they can join the tech teams and make better AI.
Okay, so please don’t roll your eyes and disappear. I say this especially because in Australia, it’s such an unsophisticated market for AI. People just think that AI jobs are all in engineering when they are not, right?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (36:04)
I’m in several coaching groups and HR groups and they even talk about AI. How do we use AI in hiring? As a coach, I get past coaching jobs and they’re like, oh, you need to know AI in coaching. AI is everywhere. I often encourage people to, most of the time your job’s not gonna be 100 % AI. It might be 10 or 20 % of your job. And just having knowledge of AI can be really powerful. So you don’t need to go get a full certificate or a degree in AI.
But even just watching some YouTube videos or taking a free or low cost course can be really powerful to say, hey, I’m staying up on the latest trends. I’m comfortable with this and I can talk about it in the interview.
Renata (36:42)
Yeah,
I have a friend here who told me he asks the job candidate, did you use AI to do your job application? And if the person says, no, he’s not interested in the candidate anymore. And I’m like, I think you have to frame that differently because the candidate doesn’t really know what to say, like because of the he is or she is expecting a backlash if they say yes.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (36:55)
Hmm?
Renata (37:10)
So we had a conversation about this, but he was adamant that no, no, if you don’t use AI, then I can’t hire you. Like you’re behind the ball. Oh boy. Let’s talk about startup because it’s a different hiring game compared to a well established tech company, a, you know, don’t know, a Facebook, for example, or LinkedIn.
How do you help clients go through a process that is more organic and informal?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (37:43)
Yeah, these startups are often going to be much more informal. They may not have a formal applicant tracking system or it may be a less sophisticated one. I encourage people who want to break into tech in particular to maybe target startups because there’s going to be less people applying often. If someone goes for a Google or a Facebook or a LinkedIn, there could be hundreds or thousands of people applying. If you target some of these more niche startups, they may have fewer roles, but there’s often going to be fewer applicants. So can be really smart.
I also encourage people, that’s a way to network as well. Oftentimes at startups, there’s a lot of people, since there is a less sophisticated hiring process, networking can be a smart way to reach out and land that initial interview and move through the hiring process as well.
Renata (38:27)
Yeah, that’s great. think it’s also like, if you think, I want to, and I do this all the time with clients of mine that say, I want to work at the UN or I want to work at Facebook. And I’m like, okay, what are the other organizations that are smaller that do things that are similar to the UN, right? That you can kind of expand your range of options.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (38:48)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Renata (38:56)
That’s a good tip there for you.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (38:58)
I love
that. it can be a lily pad too. Sometimes I say, okay, maybe you want to go work at Facebook. What’s that lily pad before you go all the way to Facebook and you’ve never worked in tech? Is there a lily pad or maybe two lily pad companies that you need to go land that’ll help you get to Facebook? And you may apply to Facebook jobs and other jobs that are maybe less competitive that can help you get there as well that you can apply to.
Renata (39:21)
Okay. Now, I think the thing I want to sort of finalize with is your transition and my transition from having a full-time job and maybe the security in brackets about that, and then deciding, you know what, I’m going to be a coach instead, an unregulated professional, and that people misunderstand what we do and how do you…
Dr. Kyle Elliott (39:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Renata (39:48)
How do you deal with that within your network? If you want to make a transition that’s really out of the box, if you are a tech professional and you want to become a landscape designer, or if you are like me, a senior executive and you want to be a career coach, tell me how you did it.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (40:07)
How I did it’s different than some people. Literally the month before I left to do my business full time, I renewed my contract at the university I was at. And I went back to my boss and said, actually, I want to renew this. I’m going to leave to do my business full time. And he said, OK, I was kind of expecting that this was coming, how much time you were spending on your business and all that. And I got well wishes. I think for a lot of people, I think of it like a complex of them diagram in figuring out what you want next.
Maybe one of the circles in that Venn diagram is salary. Another one is your passions and interests. Another one is what’s your background experience? Are you qualified? Another one is do you have the skills? Another one is the job market. Do the job market actually need what you have? And you start adding those circles. And when I do this with clients, sometimes there’s nothing in the middle of all those circles. And it’s like, okay, this is unrealistic. Other times there’s a lot in the middle of the circles and we have to
add more circles and get more specific, otherwise you’re targeting a lot. So when people are thinking about these jumps, I encourage people to actually write it down and say, what do you want next? What are these different circles that matter to you? And then once you have that target, it’s like a GPS, start writing backwards. What are the steps to get there? It sounds super simple, but a lot of people just have this idea and don’t actually write down what’s gonna get me there. What are the steps? What’s it gonna look like you’re one, two, three, four, five?
and maybe even write it a few different paths. Let’s say I want to go to Disney World. I could drive there. I could fly there. I could take all 48 continental US states to then get there and write that out. And that can be powerful. But it starts with getting clear on your parameters and saying, what’s the money? What are the skills? What are the experience? What does the job market want?
Renata (41:53)
And were you successful right off the bat? I’m assuming you were because you built it slowly while you were still employed, right?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (42:05)
Yeah,
I think a lot of people see it and mine was a very slow and steady based on my dad’s advice as I shared. It was very incremental. Some people just kind of jump. had that, I wouldn’t say safety net, but instead it was just slow and incremental. So I was already doing 30 hours a week as a side hustle before I left to go full time. And the six months before I made sure like I was making enough to survive off of each month.
Not everyone has that luxury or privilege. Sometimes it’s, they got laid off and they start their business or something. For me, it was slow and steady. When I first started, I was doing resume writing full time. And then when I wanted to do coaching, I actually didn’t just switch to coaching. I did one coaching session with every resume and then two coaching sessions, then three, then four. And now I just do pure coaching. I’m a Virgo.
Renata (42:57)
Right.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (42:58)
and type A, recovering perfectionists. So I don’t like just switching. I like making a little, like my tech clients are like the iPhone. Let’s do iPhone one, then two, then three. What are little changes? And I encourage people, unless you’re really okay with the risk, what are some little changes you can do to prototype or test this path you’re considering?
Renata (43:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. It’s interesting you don’t do resumes anymore. also, I mean, I review and proofread it if I’m working with a private client, but I don’t do it anymore. Sometimes I get clients that come to me after having done their resumes somewhere else and they send the resumes and the resume is purple or not ATS compliant in any way, shape or form.
filled with not errors because it looks pretty, but they won’t go through an applicant tracking system and be successful. Do you have that as well? And what are your biggest tips for your clients?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (44:02)
The tip, one of the tips I have is when working with a career coach, as anyone can call themselves a career coach, oftentimes really what people are doing, I say, are expert advice givers or they’re advice givers who are just giving advice instead of really coaching people. They might’ve landed one or two jobs at a big tech company, especially in the tech industry, and then say, here’s how I did it, I’m gonna tell everyone else how to do it. That’s not what a coach is doing. Yes, there might be times we give you tips, it’s easier for you and I to just say, here’s the right font size.
I could coach you to that and ask 10 open-ended questions, but it’s going to be quicker. Oftentimes though, we’re asking a lot of open-ended questions instead of telling you exactly what to do because you know your story. You’ve lived it 30, 40, 50, 60 years. Sometimes people call themselves a career coach when really they’re just telling you what to do. And that’s more of an advice giver or consultant. So asking yourself, did you really work with a career coach or did you work with more of an advice giver?
who is just kind of repeating their story to you and telling you to follow it without taking into consideration your unique situation and giving you bespoke coaching.
Renata (45:03)
you
Yeah, that’s very true. I think the hardest thing as well when it comes to just doing your resume, let’s just do my resume please, is you’re asking me to come up with a marketing strategy for you who I do not know, but I don’t know your value system and your purpose in life and your goals for your career and your actual strategy.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (45:34)
Mm-hmm.
Renata (45:34)
So no business would do a marketing strategy before mission statement and a strategy planning session and et cetera. that’s what I try to explain to them.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (45:45)
Yeah, and I think it’s part of the large,
some people, if you’re really clear on what you want, you know all that, maybe just the resume works. I think it’s part of a larger picture, is what I’m hearing you’re saying. And it’s kind of like that’s step three or four oftentimes when I work with people after we’ve done other stuff. We don’t just dive into the resume. Often clients want to, and I say, that’s great. Let’s talk about it briefly. We can scratch that itch. But often there’s like other things we need to do before we get there.
Renata (45:50)
and
Mm.
Awesome. I love this conversation, Carl. If I was living near you, we would have coffees and go to that nice ice cream shop in Santa Barbara.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (46:14)
Likewise.
Yes,
there’s a lie here. my goodness, I love ice cream too.
Renata (46:25)
Yeah, lovely. I forgot the name of the ice cream shop that I have gone a couple of times in Santa Barbara, but it’s delicious. That’s the one. Yay.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (46:32)
There’s a famous one, Mission Street Ice Cream, that might be it. Okay, they’ve had all
the celebrities, the presidents have went, it’s very famous. We just went, two days ago we were there, so. Yes.
Renata (46:41)
And they have a little taster where you can have different, that is wonderful. I love that show.
Okay, do that for me. Next time you go, think of me. Is there any final thoughts, ideas or messages that you want to leave with the audience?
Dr. Kyle Elliott (46:51)
I will think of you.
There’s a lot of negative, difficult things happening in the job market in the world, and I would encourage you to find some hope and don’t feel like you have to go at it alone. Find a community to support you. That might be some mentors, some sponsors, some other job seekers who are positive. Not everyone in your community is going to be helpful. Maybe a coach, but find a community to help you navigate this job search and stay hopeful through the process. that’s, if I had a magic wand, that would be
that ingredient in there that would be helpful.
Renata (47:31)
Awesome. And it’s what you can control too. Work with the things that are under your control and let the other things go, you know, or become an advocate for change and then make that your mission. All right, lovely. People can find you on your LinkedIn. I will put that in the episode show notes.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (47:37)
Mm-hmm.
Renata (47:55)
And you are a friend of the pod now, Kyle, whenever you want to come back, let’s say you have a great idea and you’re like, I need to share it with the world. You can come here and we will have another session. I’d love to keep talking to you in the future.
Dr. Kyle Elliott (48:06)
amazing.
Thank you for having me.
Renata (48:09)
Thank you.
