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Job Market Crisis?

Episode 267 - 2024 Was the Toughest Year for Job Seekers and Recruiters in Decades – with Geoff Slade

Guest: Geoff Slade

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As a career coach, I’ve spent years guiding corporate professionals through the ups and downs of job searching, but 2024 is proving to be one of the most challenging years I’ve ever witnessed. During a recent conversation with Geoff Slade, a recruitment veteran with over five decades of experience, it became clear that this is not just another cyclical dip in the market. This year feels unprecedented in both its difficulty and unpredictability.

What we’re seeing is a job market that’s simultaneously contracting in certain sectors while shifting toward new priorities in others. Job ads are down 13% overall, with the ICT sector seeing a shocking 23% decline. Banking, traditionally a stalwart in corporate hiring, is also feeling the pinch. So where does this leave the corporate professionals I work with—those in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, who have always been able to rely on their expertise and experience to secure their next role? Unfortunately, many of them are finding that the old rules no longer apply.

The Shift in Employer Priorities: Profitability Over Talent

One of the most striking points Geoff made was the shift in employer priorities. While attracting and retaining talent used to be at the forefront of corporate concerns, profitability has now taken center stage. Hiring decisions are being delayed, and companies are scrutinizing every expense, including recruitment. This makes the job search even more competitive and stressful for experienced professionals, who are often used to a more direct hiring process.

For senior professionals, the impact is particularly hard-hitting. They’re used to walking into roles through networks and executive searches, often bypassing the standard application process that junior professionals face. But now, even those in C-suite and director-level positions are finding themselves competing in a shrinking pool of opportunities, and, in some cases, having to go through the same dehumanizing, AI-driven recruitment processes that entry-level candidates experience.

The AI Paradox: Streamlining or Dehumanizing?

A major theme that stood out in my discussion with Geoff was the increasing reliance on AI in the hiring process. While AI tools have made recruitment more efficient for employers, they have also stripped away much of the personal touch that candidates—especially senior ones—are used to. Take, for instance, the situation Geoff shared about two candidates applying for a $400,000-a-year role, only to submit identical applications because both used the same AI tool to generate their responses. This “vanilla-ization” of applications means that candidates are losing their unique edge, something that is critically important in a crowded market.

For professionals in their prime, this trend is both disheartening and dangerous. Many of my clients are shocked when they realize that their application will likely be scanned by an algorithm before it ever reaches a human being. Even more troubling, they often don’t know how to navigate this new world. They’re highly skilled at their jobs, but applying for a job—especially in today’s automated systems—feels foreign and unnatural.

The Return of Office Mandates: A Strain on Flexibility

One of the more contentious developments in 2024 has been the push by many companies to bring employees back into the office. After years of remote and hybrid work models becoming the norm, especially post-pandemic, companies are starting to enforce stricter in-office mandates. Geoff noted that while senior professionals might still be able to negotiate flexibility, junior employees are being asked to return to the office for at least three to four days a week.

This shift comes at a time when work-life balance has become a key consideration for job seekers. In fact, some companies may be risking their retention rates by pushing for full-time office returns. For example, Amazon recently announced that it would require employees to be back in the office full-time by 2025, a move that could alienate high performers, women, and millennials—three groups that are typically more resistant to rigid office mandates.

The tension between corporate demands and personal preferences is a recurring theme in my conversations with clients. Many senior professionals, especially those with families, have come to appreciate the benefits of remote work and are reluctant to give it up. Yet, as Geoff rightly pointed out, flexibility is increasingly tied to performance. If you’re exceeding expectations, companies may be willing to bend the rules for you. But if you’re underperforming or just meeting expectations, the negotiating table is much less forgiving.

Rigorous Assessments: A New Barrier for Senior Candidates

Another disturbing trend I’ve seen among my clients is the rise of comprehensive assessments for senior roles. In the past, professionals with decades of experience under their belt could expect interviews to focus on their strategic vision, leadership qualities, and track record. Now, they are being asked to complete psychological evaluations, math and verbal reasoning tests, and other assessments that feel more suited to entry-level candidates.

Geoff and I both agreed that these assessments, while intended to ensure companies hire the best candidates, often feel excessive—especially when senior professionals are subjected to them. For many, it’s not just about the time investment, though that is substantial. It’s also about the unfamiliarity of the process. Imagine being a C-level executive who hasn’t taken a timed math test in 20 years, suddenly finding themselves trying to prove their basic numeracy skills for a job they’ve spent decades excelling at.

These assessments may be a way for companies to ensure they don’t make costly hiring mistakes, but they’re also a reminder of how the recruitment landscape has changed. Experience alone is no longer enough. Professionals need to prepare for every aspect of the hiring process, from psychometric tests to personality assessments, if they hope to make it to the final interview.

What Does 2025 Hold?

Despite the challenges of 2024, there is a silver lining. Geoff mentioned that, in the last six weeks, we’ve seen some positive signs of the market starting to free up. While sectors like ICT and banking are still struggling, industries such as healthcare, community services, and trades continue to experience growth.

But the key takeaway for job seekers, especially experienced professionals, is that success in this market requires adaptability. It’s no longer enough to rely on past achievements or traditional recruitment pathways. You need to be proactive—whether that means updating your approach to AI-driven applications, learning to negotiate for flexibility, or preparing for assessments you haven’t seen since you were in school.

The good news is that, with the right strategy, opportunities are still out there. Companies will always need talented, experienced professionals, especially as they navigate their own challenges in this evolving market. The professionals who thrive in 2025 and beyond will be those who embrace the new realities of the job search process, without losing sight of what makes them unique.

The future of work is uncertain, but one thing is clear: staying competitive in this market requires more than just experience. It requires a willingness to adapt, learn, and stand out in a way that resonates with both algorithms and human decision-makers.

About Our Guest, Geoff Slade

Geoff Slade has worked at the forefront of the Recruitment Industry for over 50 years. He is the Executive Chairman of Slade Group and TRANSEARCH International Australia. Geoff is also Chairman of Yellow Folder Research and Skillstream Australia. He is involved in several professional associations and is a Non-Executive Director of Alzheimer’s Victoria. A Chartered Management Consultant, Geoff is a past President of the Recruitment & Consulting Services Association (RCSA) – Geoff was, in fact, the founding Chairman of RCSA, the industry’s education body. He was awarded a Centenary Medal for services to the recruitment industry. Many of Australia’s leading consultants have worked for and been trained by Geoff at various times in the last three decades. He is also a regular speaker at major industry conferences. In 1967, Geoff relocated to London to take Slade to the international market, initially creating GW Slade and Associates. By 1988 and looking for a change, Geoff sold GW Slade to Blue Arrow (later known as Manpower), a British multinational pursuing international expansion. Geoff took up a newly created role as the Head of Human Resources with Pacific Dunlop. In 1991, Geoff re-launched Slade Group, which quickly moved to the forefront of recruitment in Australia, where it remains today.
Renata Bernarde

About the Host, Renata Bernarde

Hello, I’m Renata Bernarde, the Host of The Job Hunting Podcast. I’m also an executive coach, job hunting expert, and career strategist. I teach professionals (corporate, non-profit, and public) the steps and frameworks to help them find great jobs, change, and advance their careers with confidence and less stress.

 

If you are an ambitious professional who is keen to develop a robust career plan, if you are looking to find your next job or promotion, or if you want to keep a finger on the pulse of the job market so that when you are ready, and an opportunity arises, you can hit the ground running, then this podcast is for you.

 

In addition to The Job Hunting Podcast, on my website, I have developed a range of courses and services for professionals in career or job transition. And, of course, I also coach private clients

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

Timestamps to Guide Your Listening

  • 00:21 Reflecting on the Job Market in 2024

  • 01:59 Live Audience Interaction

  • 03:33 Challenges and Trends in Recruitment

  • 07:54 The Impact of Remote and Hybrid Work

  • 13:38 AI and Technology in Job Applications

  • 23:15 Recruitment Assessments and References

  • 29:05 Navigating Reference Checks

  • 32:13 Preparing for 2025: Challenges and Hopes

  • 34:16 Key Skills for Job Seekers

  • 35:12 Leveraging LinkedIn and Internal Mobility

  • 36:18 Research and Preparation for Job Interviews

  • 40:00 Adapting to Industry Changes

  • 46:09 Creating Job Opportunities in Tough Times

  • 47:54 End-of-Year Job Search Tips

  • 49:40 Concluding Thoughts and Future Outlook

Renata (00:48.705)
Yep, we’re live on LinkedIn. Hello LinkedIn. And we’re live on YouTube as well. Hello YouTube. So if you’re on LinkedIn and you want to swap around to YouTube or vice versa, we’re live on both platforms, everybody.

I know many of you have been emailing me and messaging me saying that you’re going to be participating. People tend to be very shy, Jeff, in the participation chat. Don’t be. You can please send me your questions. I have lots of questions for Jeff, but it would be nice to see the commentary and what people think about what we’re saying. I would be delighted to hear back from you. Last year, we had 800 people here on LinkedIn that watched this.

conversation and 200 on YouTube. So a thousand. And let’s see if we can beat the record, Jeff. Your conversations are always very successful here on the podcast. And I thank you so much for always being available for a chat. And I like to get you towards the end of the year so that we can do a bit of a review and assess. And, you know, for those that are still not employed and looking for work.

As we get closer to the holiday season, it gets more stressful and there’s a sense of anxiety. And I want this session today to be, you know, hope for them and support for them in the months ahead and the year to come as well. Let’s start by reflecting on 2024. How would you describe Jeff the market in 2024? Were there anything that was unexpected that took you by surprise or?

Was it just as you expected and we discussed at the end of last year?

Geoff Slade (02:50.378)
Hmm. Well, thank you for having me, Renata. I’m not sure that we didn’t expect it, but I think I said last year that things were tough and I think they remain tough, unfortunately. The cost of doing business has taken confidence out of the market in Australia and that’s created a lack of investment and it means hiring freezers.

and probably even more so delays in decision making. We’re finding that companies are slow to make decisions. They’re considering every option available to them before they make a decision. I think it reflects a change in priorities for Australian businesses. The key focus, I think, has changed with profitability now perceived to be the number one issue or the lack of it.

and attracting and retaining talent has slipped to number three. Year on year, job ads have fallen by 13%, but the quarter on quarter changes have flattened over the last two quarters across most states and territories. So I think there is meaningful hope for 2025.

Renata (03:53.562)
Hmm.

Renata (04:08.024)
Hmm.

Geoff Slade (04:17.484)
The year on year fall in labour demand was across all sectors and in particular in professional services, which was down 15%. That’s all the largest decline, primarily driven by continued decline in the ICT industry, which is down 23%. I think that was unexpected, to be frank. That sort of fall was very significant.

Renata (04:36.951)
wow,

Geoff Slade (04:45.07)
But there was a partial offset by the growth in legal, plus 8%. Real estate and property experienced modest year on year growth of 1%. Other than ICT, notable declining industries were engineering minus 22, and mining resources and energy minus 19, advertising arts and media minus 18. So since the pandemic,

Renata (05:08.559)
Mmm. Wow.

Geoff Slade (05:12.544)
The sectors that have experienced the most demand and job growth have been community services and development, trades and services, so it pays to be a trades person these days, healthcare and medical, and retail and consumer products. We’ve seen really strong growth in job seekers wanting to work in the public sector during and following the pandemic.

Renata (05:24.923)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (05:39.468)
And I think the most surprising thing has been the demand for banking and ICT workers has declined, which we probably didn’t expect either.

Renata (05:47.151)
That’s interesting. Do you have a reason for that? I mean, you’ve mentioned some of that, but specifically about those two sectors, banking and ICT, do you think it’s a reflection of the economy worldwide or is it something to do with the Australian economy? Yeah, okay.

Geoff Slade (06:04.534)
I think it’s both. You know, think things like interest rates have certainly been a local situation. I was in Switzerland about a month ago visiting my son and his family and interest rates there were at about 1 % for buying vehicles and things like that.

Renata (06:15.067)
Yeah.

Renata (06:29.371)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (06:30.328)
which is a huge difference between there and here. The wars in the Middle East and Ukraine, I think, have had an impact from an economic perspective. And, of course, banking and those sectors are global businesses, really.

Renata (06:48.098)
Yes.

Renata (06:55.903)
Yeah. Okay. Thank you for that, Geoff. I think I want to switch to talking about different types of work in the sense of where people work these days. We saw the pandemic bringing up more remote and flexibility in the workforce, hybrid work. And we’ve been discussing remote and hybrid work for a few years. I did a presentation

for your team and your clients a month ago about this. And I wanted to get your views about what 2024 is telling us about how your clients, the employers want to work with employees and are these work models evolving? Are they embracing more remote opportunities or are they asking for more people to come back into the office? What are their expectations?

Geoff Slade (07:49.74)
the letter.

Renata (07:51.149)
Mm. Okay.

Geoff Slade (07:53.002)
And I think there’s a distinct difference here between their expectations and particularly Gen Z.

Renata (08:01.85)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (08:03.406)
I attended a lunch the other day which we put on with a whole lot of top level HR executives. One of the speakers there was a young woman from Melbourne University who was, we were talking about generational differences in attitude and approach to work. And

Renata (08:25.861)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (08:27.862)
I think she blew most of the people around the table away with what Gen Z’s views were of their expectations and how to manage them. More importantly, one of the things she said was, we, being Gen Z, have no interest in people management opportunities.

Renata (08:40.026)
Wow, okay.

Renata (08:50.203)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (08:51.722)
So I think the reality is that companies are going to have to learn to manage in different ways. If they’re to make the most out of that sort of attitude from young people coming through. We’re finding still that there’s a huge variation between sectors and job families, but one of the most striking differences is that more junior and younger employees are being asked to return.

Renata (08:59.258)
Yeah.

Renata (09:05.273)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (09:20.422)
to the office at least three days a week. And a lot of the research that’s coming that I’m seeing is indicating that the most productive offices and productivity is in the end what it’s all about. Those that are working four days a week in office and one day a week from home.

Renata (09:41.083)
Hmm.

Geoff Slade (09:42.368)
So there will continue, I think, to be pressure from employers to go to that sort of model, if not five days a week.

Renata (09:52.249)
Yes, yes. I spoke about it with a group of your clients and then I did a podcast about it when Amazon announced that they were bringing their employees back to the office full time. And then after that, I listened to a podcast, a show by Ted Talks and it’s called Fixable. And these two Harvard academics were saying that…

Three people do not like to come back full-time to the office, the high performing individuals, the women and the millennials. mean, Gen Zs are not in the job market as much. So they were talking about millennials. So if Amazon implements, which they say they will, you know, from January, 2025 onwards, you have to be in the office full-time according to their new policy. They might.

score low in their diversity and inclusion or gender scores because people might decide to move away from Amazon if they can afford to, especially the high performing ones, they might go somewhere else. And if to keep the high performing, the women and the millennials, they start to open exceptions, then the Amazon culture might suffer because those exceptions never go down well with other people.

Geoff Slade (11:11.48)
No.

Renata (11:12.421)
So I thought that was a very interesting take on the situation.

Geoff Slade (11:16.278)
One of the things we see, particularly with more mature employees, is that they are agreeing in principle to mandates to come back to the office.

Renata (11:26.523)
Mm.

Geoff Slade (11:28.024)
but they’re not filling their in-office commitments or fulfilling. And there’s still little enforcement happening in Australia.

Renata (11:39.29)
Mmm.

Geoff Slade (11:42.122)
I’ve even found that in my own business here that some people commit to three or four days a week, others still come in two days a week.

Renata (11:46.073)
Yeah.

Renata (11:55.897)
Right, right, yeah.

Geoff Slade (11:57.15)
And I think, you know, with high performing individuals, employers are reluctant to try and enforce that more stringently.

Renata (12:07.577)
Right. Are there room for negotiations when people are offered opportunities and they want to ask for more flexibility? Do you know if employers are okay in maybe negotiating that at the tail end of a process?

Geoff Slade (12:25.484)
I think they are, but it depends on your performance. If you’re under budget, it’s pretty hard to negotiate why you should continue to operate the way you have been.

Renata (12:28.379)
Hmm.

Renata (12:32.112)
Yeah.

Renata (12:38.169)
Mm-hmm. Okay.

The other thing that has been top of mind for my clients and listeners, Jeff, is technology. 2024 is the first year where we have seen AI really take over and more people use AI tools to help them and support them in their job search.

Geoff Slade (13:00.823)
you

Renata (13:06.051)
I also find that my clients who are usually more senior, they’re experienced professionals, they’re managers, they’re executives, they’re gobsmacked that they need to apply for jobs in very… processes that are not very humane, let’s call it that. They’re quite surprised that they’re not talking to anyone until further down the track and they’re not used to it because they always thought that those sort of…

types of recruitment processes were for younger people. So I just had a discussion like that with my group coaching clients just this morning about it. So I’m really keen to talk to you about those technologies and have you seen a big difference in the way that people are applying for jobs using AI? What are the sort of tools and innovations that you have seen both from the recruitment perspective

and the candidate’s perspective in recruitment and selection of candidates.

Geoff Slade (14:12.59)
Well it’s funny you should ask that question because I’ve just finished a meeting half an hour ago with a company out of India.

Renata (14:19.514)
Mmm.

Geoff Slade (14:21.752)
who are basically in many respects consolidating a lot of these processes. They’ve got 3,000 employees in India, and they’re operating globally, particularly in America and England, but now more so in Australia. They’ve got 50 employees in Australia. And everything from talent identification to

Renata (14:34.842)
Wow.

Geoff Slade (14:50.03)
approaching them almost, let’s say, a 270 to 300 degree application sort of process or applicant tracking process, in some cases talking to the potential candidates before they ever get to the recruitment agency. I think there’s issues around… Firstly, I think that…

Renata (15:07.513)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (15:18.358)
The AI technology has great potential from a productivity point of view in terms of hiring processes. But there’s a real risk that all job adverts and PD start looking and sounding the same if they become over-reliant on chat GPT.

Renata (15:34.585)
Mmm.

Renata (15:39.621)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (15:41.228)
We had a situation this week, Anita, my wife, was handling a very senior role and she had two applications for the same job from two people and the applications were absolutely identical.

Renata (15:59.62)
I hadn’t thought of that, but that can happen. Yeah. I can see how it would happen.

Geoff Slade (16:02.222)
No, I hadn’t needed it. It’s pretty hard to differentiate yourself if you’re using AI to that extent, or you’re not using it as well as you could be.

Renata (16:15.449)
Yes.

Renata (16:19.663)
That’s right. It’s all about how you prompt the AI to give you a more tailored output. That’s so interesting.

Geoff Slade (16:22.829)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (16:26.254)
And this was a, you know, this is a $400,000 job. So it’s interesting that that sort of thing is happening. I could probably see it happening more in what we would call mid-level jobs, middle-level management. But very senior levels like that, we were a bit surprised, I must say.

Renata (16:30.114)
Yes.

Renata (16:40.475)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (16:46.626)
Okay, okay.

Geoff Slade (16:48.522)
And I think that for candidates, there’s a danger that CVs and interview answers become very generic and therefore unimpressive rather than the candidate’s own experience and authentic voice.

Renata (16:55.193)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (17:08.613)
That’s starting to happen already. I can see that with my client work.

Geoff Slade (17:10.626)
So, you know, we need to be wary. Candidates need to be wary, Just how it’s used.

Renata (17:15.995)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Renata (17:22.971)
How are you matching the candidates now with the jobs that are advertised? I’m thinking about that whole technology and the challenge in recruitment when they are maybe using ChatDBT or other AI tools to upload their resume and their COVA letters.

because of their lack of confidence in presenting themselves, but they are actually quite good at what they do because these are two different things. One thing is to do the job and the other one is to apply for the job. Do you see that everything becoming so vanilla, how are you finding individuals? Do you have to take extra steps to…

to identify the good ones, since everything is becoming a little bit more vanilla.

Geoff Slade (18:25.55)
Well, I think we have to train our own people, the consultants if you like, to be, as I said, more wary of what they’re seeing.

Renata (18:30.896)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (18:36.367)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (18:37.6)
I think we as consultants have to…

Geoff Slade (18:44.514)
be more specific with our clients about what it is they’re really looking for. I think there’s been a tendency in our industry to, so even when putting together a position description or working with a client to identify what they really need.

Renata (18:49.957)
Yeah.

Renata (19:03.227)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (19:04.79)
to not be nuanced enough.

Geoff Slade (19:10.935)
And I think we need, you know, not many clients are very experienced at really understanding their own needs. And I think we have to be much more helpful in doing that with them and really getting to understand what they want out of an individual and out of the experience of the individual.

Renata (19:21.86)
Yes.

Renata (19:32.443)
Mmm.

Renata (19:36.483)
Yeah, it’s almost like a different consultancy, isn’t it? To actually help them with the position description and the job design. That’s interesting.

Geoff Slade (19:39.918)
It all bests Yeah.

Yeah. We had a situation the other day, a week or two ago, where we’re doing a country general manager’s job for a client in Sydney. And the consultant handling the job wrote a PD, which, you know, on reflection, I think was too vanilla. And the client rightly said, I expect more than this.

Renata (20:08.314)
Hmm.

Geoff Slade (20:13.858)
I expect you to really understand what it is we are looking for for this job. And it needs more than just a vanilla response.

Renata (20:19.033)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (20:25.583)
Yeah. I have had situations where clients, well, me personally and clients of mine, where we gave feedback about the position description and then they changed it. You know, they would say, okay, we want you to apply for this role. And then a client would say, well, it doesn’t seem like the right role for me. And the person would say, no, you are the sort of candidate we want. What’s wrong with the PJ? And the client will, then the candidate will say, well,

Geoff Slade (20:37.293)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (20:44.846)
Mm.

Geoff Slade (20:50.221)
Yeah.

Renata (20:53.925)
That’s not what I do. What I do is X not Y and they change the PG.

Geoff Slade (20:59.084)
Well, Renata, one of the things that I try to emphasize with our own people is that we have to be curious. Just taking the PD as a given without being questioning, without saying, well, you know, what is it you’re really looking for? It’s a bit like at the other end of the spectrum.

Renata (21:06.299)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (21:11.109)
Good point, yeah.

Renata (21:20.463)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (21:27.274)
I try to insist with our consultants that they put themselves on the line when they actually put together a shortlist. Don’t just refer the candidate and this is what I’m shortlisting them for you because they’ve got the right experience because that’s what’s in the CV. What is it in your gut that tells you this is the right sort of person for this company?

Renata (21:38.043)
Hmm.

Renata (21:56.474)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (21:56.834)
That’s why I think I’ve had a lot of success over the years with saying to clients, look, this person doesn’t meet the PD that you’ve put together, but I actually think they’re better than the people who do meet that criteria that we’ve identified. Yeah.

Renata (22:07.483)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (22:16.247)
Yes, good point. Before we move on to predictions for next year, I have one more question for you about this recruitment and hiring practices. I’ve noticed as a coach this growing trend of including assessments as part of the recruitment process for my clients who are experienced professionals looking for senior roles.

Geoff Slade (22:40.332)
You made psychological assessments.

Renata (22:42.443)
Everything. So this morning in the group coaching, was a person who was going through a process that includes a conversation with a psychologist, followed by a personality test, followed by a test that includes math skills, oral and something else, like a really comprehensive assessment protocol.

That is not uncommon in my sort of with my clientele. These are clients looking for C-level roles, managing director roles. And I have a client that spent two days doing assessments and didn’t get the job. And I was telling her that it’s a good experience, go for it, practice for the maths and the oral, those sort of verbal skills. But there’s nothing really you can do in terms of practicing for the personality tests.

Geoff Slade (23:26.638)
you

Renata (23:38.907)
What do you think of that as a way of getting to know the candidate better? Do you think it’s a valuable waste of time and money for everybody because it’s a big investment for the recruitment firms and it’s a big investment of time as well for the candidates to do it.

Geoff Slade (23:58.259)
Well, I think we’re going through probably going through a cycle for many years in my history. Most companies would not hire anybody without putting them through that testing. That’s dropped off in the last 10 or 15 years quite considerably.

Renata (24:10.991)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (24:18.538)
It’s starting to pick up again, I think.

Renata (24:21.21)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (24:25.772)
I think one of the issues though, referring to the woman that you just mentioned, I’ve got no idea who it is obviously or what job she was looking for. I don’t think because you do the testing, you should automatically expect that you’re going to get the job either, even though you may feel that you’ve tested very well. Because I think the reality is that testing can…

Renata (24:43.216)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (24:56.108)
vary what the client thinks they’re really looking for. They can provide them with a different perspective.

Renata (24:59.961)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (25:04.112)
Yep.

Geoff Slade (25:07.047)
And they might also, it is a way I think of sorting out.

Geoff Slade (25:16.61)
just what the client is looking for. And in some cases, I also think that it can be overkill because the takes too much notice of the test and not what they thought in the initial interview or the second interview about the person themselves. So, you know, there’s no right or wrong, but I think clients are starting to utilize everything at their disposal.

Renata (25:34.363)
Yeah.

Renata (25:38.779)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (25:45.708)
because they can’t afford to get it wrong. It’s a very expensive process, particularly for the sort of jobs you’re talking about.

Renata (25:49.284)
Yeah.

Renata (25:53.332)
I think there is an issue with more experienced professionals that they may not have been assessed in that sort of time-constrained environment. If you’re younger and you’ve done an MBA or a master’s programs and you set for exams, you’re more used to that sort of situation. Whereas if you’re older, you might struggle a bit. So prepping for those tests and practicing for them is really important because it may have been years.

Geoff Slade (26:18.926)
Please.

Renata (26:20.633)
since you’ve done any math in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Geoff Slade (26:23.212)
and they need to be prepped properly by the recruitment company. Because a lot of them enter into that sort of situation without knowing that’s coming.

Renata (26:34.88)
Yeah. So as part of the program that I run, I make sure that people understand that it’s really up to them to go and research and practice for those tests with the expectation, with the assumption that you will have to do it towards the end of the program. The other trend that I’ve experienced, Jeff, is references being contacted way before the end of the process.

Geoff Slade (26:50.637)
Yeah.

Renata (27:02.179)
when there are three or four candidates still running for the role. Is that a practice that the Slade group is doing as well?

Geoff Slade (27:10.018)
Normally no.

Renata (27:11.373)
Okay. Why do you think that’s the case? Because…

Geoff Slade (27:13.602)
But we wouldn’t normally we wouldn’t do it. But if the client requests it and the candidate is happy to do it, we would do it. But normally it’s done at the end of the process.

Renata (27:20.603)
Mm.

Renata (27:29.029)
Do you think a candidate can ask the recruiter to, if possible, postpone the conversation with a reference or is that dictated by the client? I say this because if you have gone through two or three situations where your referees were contacted and you didn’t get the job, it starts to become a bit awkward for the candidate.

Geoff Slade (27:47.232)
It does. I think they can ask for it to be postponed. That doesn’t necessarily mean that agreement will follow, but I actually think it’s a bit of an imposition on the candidate and can end up in the wrong result anyway.

Renata (27:51.291)
Okay.

Renata (28:03.129)
Yeah. Yes.

Renata (28:08.633)
Yeah, yeah. And I noticed that it is happening more often. So I really appreciate you saying that because it gives people that are listening a bit more control over the situation. And if the referees haven’t been in the job market, they may not know that that’s the case, that they will be contacted halfway through the process and not at the tail end.

and I think it’s important for them to know.

Geoff Slade (28:37.41)
Well, I think the big worry, Renata, is that quite often the client wants to do the reference without allowing the candidate to ask permission from the referee as to whether or not they’re happy to take a call.

Renata (28:53.008)
Renata (28:56.645)
Can they do that?

Geoff Slade (28:58.983)
Legally, there’s nothing stopping them doing it. But we would indicate to the client that it’s not kosher really to do such a thing. But there are plenty of clients around who will do it anyway.

Renata (29:11.077)
Uh-huh.

Geoff Slade (29:16.78)
And that’s a concern.

Renata (29:18.893)
Yes. Yeah. We have somebody here saying that they asked to defer the reference checks and that was okay. They were granted that request. So that’s good to know that some employers are okay with you taking more control.

Geoff Slade (29:25.741)
Yep.

Geoff Slade (29:33.19)
I think what you’re talking about here to an extent is the word control.

Renata (29:38.33)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (29:43.374)
You know, think candidates have to be fairly firm in what they’re prepared to allow and or not prepared to allow in terms of checks and things that take place during the process.

Renata (30:04.142)
Mm.

Geoff Slade (30:07.17)
You know, I try to train my people to take control of the environment when they’re doing an interview or when they’re doing a client visit to pick up a job.

Renata (30:21.913)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (30:23.138)
because otherwise there’s a tendency to go off the rails. But the candidates equally have to be.

Geoff Slade (30:34.808)
prepared to stand up for themselves.

Renata (30:37.657)
Yes, yes, yes. And not be afraid of burning bridges, yeah.

Geoff Slade (30:39.98)
in a nice way, you know, to say, Mr. Client, I’m sorry, but at this point, I’m not prepared to give you permission to talk to my referees. I’m happy to do that at the end of the process when you feel comfortable that you think I’m a serious candidate for the job or when I feel seriously interested in the job. But at this point, I’m not prepared to give you permission to do that.

Renata (30:49.275)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (31:07.739)
I like the wording. hope that she’s listening so she can use the exact wording you just did. Thank you, Jeff. Let’s talk about 2025. How is Lade preparing for the next year?

Geoff Slade (31:24.076)
Well, with a glimmer of hope. I reckon this is the toughest year we’ve had. I’ve been in this business for 58 years. And I think this is the toughest year we’ve had since 1974.

Renata (31:27.449)
Okay.

Renata (31:34.317)
Wow, okay.

Renata (31:40.567)
Wow, I was two years old in 74.

Geoff Slade (31:44.287)
I wish I had been. But I just, the lack of confidence in the market has been very evident. All of the big recruitment firms, the publicly listed firms are way down in terms of revenue and profitability. And so are the smaller firms like ours, or the medium firms.

Renata (31:57.518)
Uh-huh.

Renata (32:06.201)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (32:16.116)
But I’ve seen in the last six weeks, that the market is starting to free up a bit.

Renata (32:24.238)
Okay.

Geoff Slade (32:25.096)
and hopefully that will continue into 2025. I think the political climate, both internationally and domestically and with the federal election due, probably isn’t great for job seekers.

Renata (32:29.37)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (32:41.335)
And of course the economy is constrained by high interest rates and inflation being stubbornly high, but I’m even seeing green shoots there. I think the inflation rate has dropped significantly in the last few weeks, three or four weeks. We would expect growth in the public sector to slow.

Renata (32:51.547)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (33:05.324)
I think there’s a rebound happening in ICT.

Renata (33:09.573)
Good.

Geoff Slade (33:10.826)
And I think there’s continued growth in community health care and trades. Not sure how the banking and finance sector will come back, but hopefully it will. I think there are people who are better qualified than me to comment on technology skills, but I still see the keys to success being relationships, focus and productivity. And I think…

Renata (33:37.455)
Mm.

Geoff Slade (33:39.058)
know, candidates when they’re applying for jobs or in the middle of interviews need to be able to focus on those three things. You know, where can I add value to you, the client? What are my communication and presentation skills like? I have to be able to engage with the person who’s interviewing me.

Renata (33:55.788)
Hmm

Renata (34:08.218)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (34:09.12)
And if I can’t do that, the chances of me getting the job are probably pretty slim.

Renata (34:16.699)
Do you see your teams at Slate and, and train search and whatnot using LinkedIn to kind of identify those hallmarks for the candidates through their profile and activity? Do you think that that is important as a way of choosing the right candidates or is it more the job application?

and the conversations. I’m just trying to see how much LinkedIn, especially as a precursor of the job application, is important for recruiters.

Geoff Slade (34:51.426)
Yes, we do. Yeah.

Renata (34:52.955)
Okay, good, because that’s what I’ve been telling everyone. So thank you.

Geoff Slade (34:58.496)
I think a couple of other points I’d make is if you’re employed, take every advantage of job mentoring, job shadowing, mentoring, rotations and other internal mobility opportunities.

Renata (35:02.587)
Mm.

Renata (35:13.7)
Right.

Geoff Slade (35:15.448)
I think it’s one of the best ways to prove you’re ready for the next steps in your career.

Geoff Slade (35:22.847)
As a job seeker, do your research. Far too many candidates turn up and they’ve never even looked at the website of the potential client if they happen to know it. And I’m not sure that even after being told who the company is that they do their research as well as they might. Be conscious of the business climate and the change focus for business with profitability being the chief concern.

Renata (35:33.829)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (35:41.242)
Yes.

Geoff Slade (35:50.894)
You know, you need to have a feel or an understanding of how the company you’re talking to is going. You know, these are the sorts of questions that you need to be asking of the person doing the interview. Is this company doing well in the market? Is it got the potential to do well? Will it survive? Because there’s no doubt in my mind that this is a market where there are lots of companies going out of business.

Renata (35:57.883)
Mmm.

Renata (36:05.787)
Yeah.

Renata (36:21.231)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (36:22.324)
and it’s not much fun for you to join a new company and six months later they no longer exist or they can’t afford to keep you.

Renata (36:31.609)
Yes. You know, sometimes.

Geoff Slade (36:34.296)
The decision is very important for you as much as it is for the client.

Renata (36:38.863)
Yeah.

Sometimes people come to me and I tell them the importance of doing all that preparation and that research and they’re quite surprised and feel like it’s a lot of work for potentially little chance of getting the job. And the test that I asked them to do is this, if you’re not interested in this organization, why would you want to work there? Right?

Geoff Slade (37:02.455)
Exactly.

Renata (37:04.441)
So if you don’t have the passion and the interest to be curious and do the research and read the news about it and go on the website and download their annual reports, then you’re not ready for a senior executive role at this organization. Maybe you don’t want this anymore. Let’s think about, let’s go back to the drawing board and think about your next steps in your career.

Geoff Slade (37:25.952)
I’d agree completely.

Renata (37:27.576)
Okay.

Geoff Slade (37:29.762)
Yeah, good advice.

Renata (37:30.553)
Yeah. The point is not really getting the job. Yes, you know, at the beginning of the process, your chances are 10, 20 percent. If there are, you know, five other candidates, it’s a 20 percent chance, right? But for your own professional development and understanding of the sector you’re interested in, your industry, the companies that are in that sector.

That research will never be wasted time. And if you feel like it is a waste of time, then we need to go back to the drawing board. need to, yeah, okay. I see it that way as well. And it’s okay to want something else for your career. And if you’re listening and you have that sentiment, don’t worry about it. There’s no right or wrong. You know, we just need to know how you’re going to…

live out the next decade of your career, what do want really to do? What are your expectations in terms of job opportunities? And we can do something different. We don’t need to do the same thing.

Geoff Slade (38:36.876)
I think you also need to do some homework about the industries that you’re looking at. Do they have growth potential?

Renata (38:43.311)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (38:49.475)
If you looked at industries that were growing 20, 30, 40 years ago, most of them are nowhere near the top these days as we’ve become more and more a service economy.

Renata (38:54.329)
Yeah.

Renata (39:00.503)
Last

Yeah. Do you think that that’s the future for Australia’s service economy focused on health and professional services, bit of mining? Is that how you see executives focusing their energies into? Yeah.

Geoff Slade (39:14.146)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (39:18.284)
Yeah. Now, if you’ve only got experience in manufacturing, the chances of you moving into the service economy are pretty slim.

Renata (39:22.715)
Mm.

Geoff Slade (39:28.62)
But for young people who are looking for people in their 20s and early 30s, before they’re well established in their experience and career, they should be looking at industries that have real growth potential.

Renata (39:29.327)
Yeah.

Renata (39:43.94)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (39:45.791)
I don’t think even five years ago we would have seen the opportunities that exist now in healthcare that exist today.

Renata (39:55.779)
True. Yeah. It’s huge, isn’t it?

Geoff Slade (39:59.446)
It is, and not just in Australia. In fact, you know, it’s probably we have labor shortages in the healthcare industry that would match anyone in the world. So if you’re well placed and have a background in healthcare or the opportunity to move into healthcare, I think for the next 20 years or so, at least there are lots of job opportunities there.

Renata (40:03.119)
Yeah.

Renata (40:11.823)
Yeah

Renata (40:19.631)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (40:27.691)
Do you have good examples of job candidates that have been successful at making those difficult transitions into healthcare, for example, from a different area that you could sort of share with us? What was it about their performance that made them successful?

Geoff Slade (40:43.522)
Well, for instance, I don’t think, for instance, you need to be have been a CFO in healthcare in order to get a job in healthcare or a marketing director.

Renata (40:55.301)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (41:00.146)
Certainly there are jobs where if you haven’t worked in them previously in healthcare, you’re not going to get one. You’re not going to suddenly become a nurse.

Renata (41:09.733)
Sure.

Geoff Slade (41:10.7)
But there are lots of jobs that exist in other industries where you could aspire to get into an industry like healthcare, which is growing.

Renata (41:23.319)
And because they have more demand, they’re also more open for those industry transitions, right? Yeah. Good point.

Geoff Slade (41:28.066)
Yeah. And I think even it’s interesting, I read an article in Shortlist, which is the recruitment industries go to newsletter the other day, maybe three or four weeks ago, that said recruitment companies are now opening up their minds to senior management who’ve come from other industries, which has never been the case.

Renata (41:43.259)
Mm.

Renata (41:57.559)
Mm-hmm.

And why do you think that’s happening in the recruitment industry?

Geoff Slade (42:04.024)
Well, because I think there’s too few quality managers in our industry that exist. And secondly, I think people are recognizing that those candidates without industry experience can bring a whole new perspective.

Renata (42:06.435)
Really? Okay.

Renata (42:25.637)
Yeah. It will be interesting to see the outcome of what you said about the Generation Z not wanting leadership opportunities when it comes to finding future leaders for industries like recruitment.

Geoff Slade (42:37.133)
Mm.

Geoff Slade (42:42.572)
Well, I think it’s going to end up being a big gap in the industry has to adapt. Or we have to build jobs that are going to be of interest to those people.

Renata (42:48.804)
Yes.

Renata (42:53.177)
Yeah. We need to give the jobs to the Generation X and the millennials and then skip a generation and hopefully the next one. We want leadership positions, but it’s true. I have a client in the US from last year and she was offered a job. She was really excited. She is excited about the role she has. And in her own boarding in this new organization, she was given

Geoff Slade (43:03.48)
possible.

Renata (43:21.635)
the option of two tracks, a leadership track or a professional expert track. And she chose the professional expert track. She doesn’t want leadership roles. Yeah. And I thought that was interesting that from the get-go, they were already identifying future opportunities for her.

Geoff Slade (43:39.436)
I think Renata that having been in people management roles all my career, I can understand that point of view.

Renata (43:46.181)
Hmm.

Geoff Slade (43:51.532)
Managing people is not easy. And as the world is changing and people becoming, you know, taking much greater ownership of their careers.

Renata (44:03.451)
Mm.

Geoff Slade (44:03.507)
It’s easy to understand that view.

Renata (44:06.297)
Yes. It’s one of the things I miss the most is, you know, working with people and managing people. Yes, I do. I have that in me. I really miss having a group and a team and delegating, escalating, being part of that sort of structure is something that working by myself now I really do miss. But you’re right. Once you have a little bit

Geoff Slade (44:12.259)
Is it?

Geoff Slade (44:21.293)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (44:26.712)
Well, perhaps you need to start a business that’s at the moment, your business at the moment is focused on senior professionals and management. Perhaps you need one for Gen Z.

Renata (44:35.587)
I know.

Renata (44:39.285)
I know, I need to talk to you about that. You’re great at this, expanding businesses. No, but I think one of the things that people doesn’t really get it is that the career ambition to go up and up in the corporate ladder means usually dedicating more and more time to people issues. And if you’re not interested in that, then that will be a problem for you. You can’t really delegate those things when you’re at that level. have to take, that is your responsibility.

Geoff Slade (45:02.636)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (45:09.238)
and you have to make decisions.

Renata (45:10.889)
You do, yeah. So we have a question here. Is there advice on creating opportunities by job seekers in a flat and vanilla environment? Is there advice on creating opportunities for job seekers in a flat and vanilla environment? I don’t know that I understand the question though. Jeff, do you?

Geoff Slade (45:34.891)
Sort of. I think whether it’s a flat or vanilla environment or not, I think you can create job opportunities, but you have to do your homework. You have to identify the industries that you would like to be involved in. You have to identify the companies in those industries that are

Renata (45:42.607)
Mm.

Renata (45:49.85)
down.

Geoff Slade (46:02.304)
exhibiting growth potential or real growth, you have to be prepared to approach those companies, perhaps even to the CEO. mean, let’s face it, if you can get a CEO interested in your background, even if you’re then referred to the HR person somewhere down the line, if the CEO says to the HR person, this individual looks interesting.

Renata (46:05.904)
Mm.

Renata (46:22.809)
Mm-hmm.

Geoff Slade (46:32.396)
Can you interview them as a first step?

it may just create an opportunity.

Renata (46:40.303)
Yeah.

Geoff Slade (46:42.178)
But you have to be prepared to do that homework. And my observation is that not many people are.

Renata (46:45.787)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (46:49.862)
I actually as a

Geoff Slade (46:50.062)
You have to think laterally about where your background might fit in.

Renata (46:53.146)
Yes, yes.

Renata (46:58.325)
I always at the end of the year like to have episodes to support people that are feeling anxious about not having a job at the end of the year. think it’s a great sort of personal issue for me because I have been in that situation, not having a job at the end of the year is really triggering. I think for some people it used to be triggering for me. You don’t want to go and have

conversations with your family and friends, know, in a social setting, in a Christmas party and not have a job, it’s hard to know what to say and to provide, you know, an update when you’re not happy with your update. I’ve been in that situation more than once, so I do relate to that. But having said that, for those listening, I think it’s a really good time of the year to be disciplined and have

Geoff Slade (47:35.938)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (47:51.181)
and continue to network and not fall off the wagon during this time. Because what I have learned from my personal experience and my clients is that if you are disciplined and you continue to nurture your relationships, engage on LinkedIn, have your coffees, be confident and comfortable with what you’re saying to people. When you have those catch-ups and be on listening mode, a lot of good things can happen in the new year because you’ve managed to nurture those relationships.

Keep top of mind of people, send them Christmas emails to the recruiters that have helped you throughout the year, even if you didn’t get a job. All of these things I think are really great. And by the time this episode goes out, I will have already released episode 264, which is a survival guide for the end of the year if you’re unemployed. So listen to that. That might be beneficial. And then we have this episode with Jeff that we’re recording live here.

Geoff Slade (48:41.827)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (48:50.939)
on LinkedIn, on YouTube on the 17th of October, and we’re releasing it at the beginning of December to help anybody that is still looking for work in 2025 or will start to look for work in 2025. Jeff, I think of all of the things you said, I think the most important for those that are looking for work to hear is that this has been a tough year for you and for recruiters because people do not have that sense of perspective. If they’re looking for work now and they haven’t looked for work before, this is all they know.

And it’s looking so difficult and they have the sense, is this always difficult like this? And it’s not, it’s been more difficult now than it has been in a long time. There you go.

Geoff Slade (49:29.23)
It has. Significantly more difficult. I mean, when I said to you that I thought it was the most difficult year we’ve had since 1974, that includes the recession, end of the mining boom in the late 80s. It includes the financial crash in the early 2000s or 2008 or 9, 10. It’s been tough.

Renata (49:53.051)
Mm-hmm.

Renata (49:58.009)
Yeah. No, I think the advice here is to focus on bootstrapping, understanding that this is a socioeconomic issue that is outside of our control. But with all things to do with economics, it’s ups and downs. And there’s every chance that 2027 will be much better than 2024. I do have hope after the American election and

Geoff Slade (49:59.95)
and they shouldn’t lose hope.

Renata (50:27.781)
Things then folding after that, whichever way it goes, it’s better than the situation we have now.

Geoff Slade (50:34.912)
I hope you’re right.

Renata (50:36.828)
I hope so too. All right, my friend. Thank you so much for once again doing this with me. Can we lock in next year? I want you back.

Geoff Slade (50:44.642)
Sure. I’m getting to the age where I might not be around next year, Renata, but you never know.

Renata (50:49.787)
forget that. Of course, you will be around and I’ll see you next year for another take on 2025-2026. Can’t wait. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jeff. Bye-bye, everyone. Thanks for participating and keep the comments going. I’ll be checking them this afternoon and answering any questions that you may have thought of and we haven’t addressed it here. Bye, everyone.

Geoff Slade (50:59.168)
and you enjoy your trip.

Geoff Slade (51:16.003)
Thank you.

 

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