Greg Savage: If your mandate is to coach people with their careers and their jobs, you should have a very good perspective on why people don’t progress through recruitment agencies or why they do. So from that point of view, given that so many jobs are filled through recruitment agencies, I think I can be helpful, but I’m definitely not a competitor of yours. That’s for sure.
Renata: Awesome. Wonderful.
Renata: You’re very respected in the recruitment world, Greg, and a trusted advisor to recruiters.
And for my listeners, understanding the world of recruitment is really important because it’s their audience. It’s who they’re trying to convince – their intermediaries between where they are now and where they want to be.
Greg Savage: Yeah.
Renata: So let’s talk about 2024 because that’s the year we’re recording this podcast.
It’s January 2024 as we record this. What do you think recruiters are interested in 2024 compared to previous years post-pandemic?
Greg Savage: Well, that’s a very nuanced question actually, because the market has changed considerably from the point of view of recruiters and, by extension, the point of view of job seekers. What we had after COVID, and I hesitate to say “after COVID” seeing as it’s still everywhere, but after the lockdowns, etc., we had that unprecedented boom in hiring which none of us were really expecting, to be honest with you.
And in terms of the recruitment industry, 21, 22, the first half of 23 were outstandingly good years because a lot of companies were hiring. There’s a shortage of talent and a lot of people were mobile in terms of their job searches. They were looking for better and different things. So there were a lot of jobs.
There was a lot of hiring and recruiters did very well in the last six months. That has changed. Now we can talk about this at some length. The underlying demand for skills in Australia anyway is still very good. I mean, there are structural shortages of talent. But companies are much more hesitant about hiring. The process has slowed down. The criteria, you know, two years ago, and I’ll speak about this from a recruiter’s point of view, but it will impact any job seeker.
If a recruiter got a candidate in front of a client, when I use the word client, I mean the hiring company, and that candidate had 60 percent of what the client was looking for, they would make them an offer because they needed help. They needed skills, they needed people. Now, if that happened, they would tell the recruiter, “Look for more candidates.” They’re looking for a more perfect fit. At the same time, because any hiring decision involves two stakeholders or three if you include the recruiter, candidates are more cautious. Their interest rates have gone up, the cost of living’s gone up, they sense that the market has tightened. And so candidates are looking for stability more than just money in terms of their decision making.
So, it’s a much different market to a year ago, and I suspect it will continue that way for a lot of this year.
Renata: Yes, yes. I can confirm from the candidate’s perspective that stability now has become key. Compared to previous years, it has been a very different end of 2023 and even the beginning of 2024. I know people say January is a slow year, but it hasn’t been slow for a few years. It has been quite busy for me, and I’m assuming for you as well. And this year it’s not. So before we started recording, you said you can tell us. In your experience, why candidates are not going through smoothly through the recruitment agencies, and I would really like you to expand on that. Why is it that so many people at the recruitment stage?
Greg Savage: A recruitment consultant is the agent between the candidate and the client. And recruitment consultants receive a lot of criticism, and some of it is justified, but a vast majority of it is not justified. And I can talk at some length if you wish to ask me questions about that. I think you briefed me that you may ask me why companies use more than one recruiter or why they recruit themselves and use a recruiter. And that’s totally dysfunctional and causes a lot of problems for everyone, especially candidates. I can talk more about that. A lot of candidates, and it’s partially because they’ve had some bad experiences with recruiters, they treat the recruiter as almost the enemy. And the recruiter is your ally. And that’s the starting point.
The recruiter should be your agent. A good recruiter will be your agent to represent you in the marketplace, to open doors that are otherwise closed for you. A footballer or a theatrical person or an actor, they have an agent to represent them. Now, those people can get jobs, they can work in any gig, but the agent finds the best one financially and for their career. That’s what a good recruiter will do. So the first thing is I would say that you need to find a good recruiter and that is one that treats you with respect, returns your calls, is an expert in their niche. You need to build a close rapport with that recruiter, and you need to give them – I mean, there are so many candidates who apply, and then the recruiter sets up an interview time, and then they don’t turn up, and they call a week later and say, now I’m ready.
Well, that is not going to facilitate a good relationship, and you need to remember that the recruiter is your ally and your partner and you need to treat them that way. So, and by the way, I’m not excusing the behavior of recruiters who also do a range of things that are unacceptable and that we’re working on.
But the candidate, the person looking for a job needs to find that. I would recommend a specialist in their niche. I would recommend investing time to understand the recruiter’s expertise. The recruiter will be asking you questions about your expertise, but you can ask the recruiter about their expertise, not in a confrontational way, but rather, “Do you have access to employers that suit my criteria?” would be a great question for a candidate to ask.
And what is the market like? What competition will I face? What do I need to do, says a smart candidate, to impress in the process? Most of the candidates do not do that. And a good recruiter will give you outstanding advice and will coach you, for example, on gaps in your resume or areas of weakness that can be definitely not covered up, but explained and presented in a positive way. That’s how the recruiter will act as your ally. And, and very important to remember that a good recruiter will be a life career partner. I’m of an age where I’ve got friends in recruitment who have placed the same candidate in 10 jobs over 40 years. And I’m not exaggerating. I placed them as an accounts clerk and an accountant and a finance, and now the recruiter can walk into the boardroom and I’ve got friends like this in Sydney or Melbourne and half the people in the room will get up and throw their arms around them because they’ve built up.
Now, the value of that on both sides is difficult to quantify because you’ve got to remember that recruiters don’t just screen and match. Recruiters open doors. A good recruiter will see a candidate who’s got skills and actively go out and find them opportunities. But they’re not going to do that if the candidate has shown that they are going to work in a partnership.
So there’s a lot that candidates can do. Reliability, transparency are, are important. So, for example, being honest with your recruiter and saying, “Yes, I am interested in this job, but I’ll be honest with you. I’ve got another position that I’m more interested in.” That will not stop the recruiter working on your behalf, but it will allow the recruiter not to embarrass themselves in the eyes of their clients, who, after all, they also have an obligation to.
So those are the sorts of things that I would recommend.
Renata: Oh, that’s perfect. That’s music to my ears. I love that. And the reason why we met is because of an important recruiter in my life. And I have, you know, a dozen others that I’ve worked with before. And I don’t even think a professional needs that many. I think you have four or five people on your corner geographically, you know, aligned with where you want to live or in the industry or executive level that you want to work.
You’re fine.
Greg Savage: Yeah.
Renata: Life.
Greg Savage: That’s good.
Renata: Yeah, before we go to those questions, those questions that I sent you are actually questions from listeners and from clients, and I want to go in and discuss them with you. But before we move on to those questions, I wanted to ask you about the influence of automation and AI in the recruitment process.
Sector and, what’s your opinion on where we’re heading, especially with AI and the advent of HES systems. How has it impacted the way that recruiters work?
Greg Savage: Yeah.
The thing, of course, with any new innovation, especially in the world of social media, and especially in the world where people are so binary, by that, I mean, there are huge fans of automation in recruitment, and there are huge enemies of automation in recruitment.
And there are people who say automation will replace recruiters, and there are others who then say it won’t make any difference, it’s all about the human element, and of course, it’s neither of those things. It’s a blend. And what will happen, and it’s starting to happen, is that the parts of the job that machines can do better than people will be done by machines.
That is absolutely inevitable. And that includes things like screening resumes, making the match where recruitment companies and employers themselves are going to get it wrong is where they automate the part of the job that should be done by humans. Now, if you want an example of that, try to find Qantas and get something done.
Try to find an insurance company and get something done. I’ve got a situation with Apple where I’m trying to renew my subscription. And Apple, the biggest tech company in the world, said, “We can’t do this online, phone your Apple store,” but the Apple store doesn’t return my call. So that is a classic example of where they’ve got all the tech in the world, but they don’t use it for the better outcome of the stakeholders.
Now, this is a conversation that I’m having with recruitment company owners because they mustn’t fight tech, they must embrace it, but they must use it. Automate the right parts of the job. What I’m hoping and what I believe will ultimately happen is that automation will free up recruiters to spend more time talking to their candidates and their clients, and that will be an outstanding thing.
And that is, I believe, and look, I’m not going to try to predict five or 10 years, who knows that we’ll move so fast and also remember that AI and ChatGPT, these are at the very beginning of the processes. It’s like a motor car in 1908, you know, that’s where we’re at. It’s going to get a lot better.
So we must remember that. And the other thing is that I need to constantly remind people who say automation is going to make recruitment easier. It’s going to make it a lot harder initially. People just don’t see the obvious. Candidates can use AI to find and apply for jobs while they’re asleep.
So candidates are going to set algorithms and say, “Find me these jobs, prepare this cover letter, apply for this job,” and they’ll do it. Thousands of them. And what that means is it’s going to be harder for recruiters to screen out the right candidate. Not easier. Initially, I mean. So we’ve got a long, long way to go.
And when it comes to using things like ChatGPT, etc., I think we should all use it for the right reasons. But just remember that at the end of the day, authenticity is valued. And people can see right now very easily when you’ve used ChatGPT to create a cover letter or something like that.
Renata: Yeah, I agree. I actually interviewed ChatGPT for the podcast. Greg, I don’t know if you knew this, that was about six months ago. I probably should interview ChatGPT again. We gave it a voice. I asked it questions and it replied back and we voiced over it. So it was really an interesting conversation with AI.
And since then, we have been talking about using ChatGPT more for research purposes and preparation, rather than draft and design. If that makes sense,
Greg Savage: Don’t get me wrong. I use,
Renata: Yeah,
Greg Savage: I use and I think you should use it, but you, you, you interviewed ChatGPT. If you ask ChatGPT the first question that you asked me, and that question was, “What are recruitment companies doing and thinking in 2024?” it will provide you with a blank answer. It has no insights to the current because it’s only got data from the internet up to about a year ago.
So somebody like you. And me, who is in a niche communicating with the marketplace, you touched on that, that maybe this year is a bit quieter in January for job seekers. Well, I know exactly what it’s like. Cause I’ve had 16 board meetings this year with recruitment companies. I know exactly their numbers and I know exactly where the demand is.
And that’s not because I’m clever, it’s just because I’m in. You, you can’t get that from ChatGPT. It does not know that. So insights and accurate, I mean, it’ll change in time. Perhaps it will be able to do those things, but it can’t at the moment. So I think there’s a massive uses for it, which are very, very profoundly time saving, and they’re going to get much better, but as with all tech.
It’s important to use it in the right situations.
Renata: Yeah, I agree, agree. Are recruiters tech-savvy? In terms of how to use the resume sieves and the ATS software that they have available to them. I say this because one of the biggest criticisms from job candidates is that they feel like they are a good candidate for a role, but they are not selected or shortlisted and one of their assumptions, their hypotheses, is that the ATS system hasn’t been, input of keywords or information didn’t allow them to, convert from application to a shortlist.
What are your views on that?
Greg Savage: You know, look, there’s it obviously varies dramatically, but comments. One is, no, recruiters are not particularly tech-savvy. It’s a generalization. They don’t use their nearly as comprehensively as they could. But the narrative of the ATS discounting people because of keywords is largely a myth.
Renata: It’s over exaggerated. It does happen, but mostly recruiters themselves will look at applications and make a decision about whether people go forward or not. What I would like to see is much more sophisticated use of technology to disqualify from a, from a long list rather than a short list.
Greg Savage: obviously inappropriate people. And then those people are saying inappropriate, it might be inappropriate because, you know, they applied for a doctor’s job and they don’t have a medical degree. So they get disqualified from that. And then somebody communicates them. And then the long list or the medium list is then.
Recruiter. And that’s, you know, that’s where we’ve got to get the balance between tech and human knowledge, right?
Renata: Yes, okay, excellent answer. Thank you for that. Now going through the questions that I often get from my clients and the listeners. The first one is about how recruiters get paid. That’s a very, that’s a big curiosity in the, in the community of job seekers. And I’d like you to, as much as you can in general terms, provide us with an idea of how that happens.
Greg Savage: I will explain it to you explicitly. But before, before we do, let me clarify that there are two questions in your one question. First is how do recruitment companies get paid for their services? And I’m not you asked him that question. And the second is how do recruitment consultants get paid for doing their jobs at two different things.
Renata: Two different things, both important.
Greg Savage: it’s most important to understand that the first is that companies are typically paid a fee, a recruitment company Will be paid a fee for helping a client and remember a client in my language is an employer Helping a client and that fee is based on a percentage of the salary of the placed candidate. This is typically how it works.
There are all sorts of variations Now I must quickly say that the money does not come from the candidate’s salary. It’s just calculated that way. So the fee might be 15%. The salary might be 100, 000. The fee that the recruitment company will charge the employer is 15 000, which is 15, 000. That does not go to the recruiter.
That is the fee just as the architectural firm’s fee or the engineering company’s fee doesn’t go to the individual. It goes to the company. So it’s calculated that way and it’s paid by the company. those fees are anything between at the lower end of the market, 10%, of salary to 30 percent at the high end for senior executive search.
That might be finding a CEO for BHP or something. That might be a one-year search that could be 30 percent of the annual salary. If you want me to narrow it down in, in Australia, Sydney and Melbourne, it’s 15 to 18 percent typically that company, the recruitment company. Um, Now this is very important that it’s going to open a can of worms that you may or may not want to dive into.
In the vast majority of cases, the fee only gets paid if the recruiter fills the job. Now, you might go, okay, that’s fair enough. Well, it’s not actually, you could not name me another industry where professionals. Get paid only on success. Can you imagine going to a doctor and saying I’ll pay you if you get better?
Can you imagine going to an accountant and say I’ll pay you if I get a better tax return? and not only that, many cases the employer gives the job vacancy to more than one recruiter. Which is deeply dysfunctional and causes a lot of the disappointments for candidates, which touched on in your later questions.
When people say, why do I see the job advertised by two agencies, etc., it is much more effective when an employer gets a good recruitment company and gives them the job exclusively so they can put full energy into it. Now I’m quite. I’m quite prepared to, talk more about that, but it’s more a lesson for employers than it is for candidates.
So short story, recruitment companies charge their clients a percentage of the starting salary, but it doesn’t come from the person that comes from the company. Recruiters, it varies around, around the world, but in Australia, the vast majority of recruiters get paid a very reasonable base salary and the base salary is typically paid monthly.
And if you want to know what it is. For a junior person starting in resourcing, it might be 60. This is in Sydney. It’d be less in some of the other states. I might be 60, 000 to a more experienced recruiter, a hundred thousand as a base salary. There’s variations outside of that, but I’d reckon 80 percent of recruiters will have base salaries in that range, depending on experience.
And then they will always have all Most, vast majority of cases have the ability to earn bonuses based on their performance. And that performance is measured typically by the sum total of fees, which was what we talked about in the first part, are generated by them for placing their candidates in jobs.
And there’ll be all sorts of criteria and hurdles, etc. But the more candidates they place, the more fees they generate. The higher their bonus will be. And typically that’s paid weekly or sometimes monthly. is a summary of how it works in recruitment.
Renata: Greg, if a candidate is placed but doesn’t meet probation, what happens to the agency’s fees? I’m assuming they won’t.
Greg Savage: Yeah. So, the probation that the candidate has, let’s, let’s move away from that word because the agreement between the recruitment company and the employer will in most cases include a guarantee clause. So let’s use that word because it may not align with the probation. Probation might be three months, but the recruiter’s guarantee might be six months.
Usually it’s three months and the recruiter will provide their client a guarantee that the candidate will be suitable and will stay employed. Normally three months can be longer. Now it works in different ways. Sometimes the guarantee is we guarantee that if this person doesn’t work out, we will refill the role free of charge.
Sometimes it’s a repayment of the full fee. And sometimes it’s a repayment of part of the fee on a prorated basis, depending on how many months. Now, that can occur and can come into play if the candidate is deemed unsuitable by the client and let go, which happens. Then the guarantee would come into play.
But sometimes the client loves the candidate, but the candidate decides to leave because of any of the human reasons that occur. That could be they don’t like the job. It could be they’ve got a better job offered somewhere else. It could be they’re following their girlfriend to Peru. Whatever reason, of which there are many, the guarantee will come into play.
A good recruiter will try to manage the situation for the best outcome of all parties.
It’s never good for any stakeholder if this happens, but because we’re dealing with humans, you can’t offer a guarantee like you can for lawnmower. A recruiter can do everything right. And sometimes the employer is not following through on their obligations. They’re not giving the person good training or onboarding or it’s a very uncomfortable environment.
Recruiter still has to honor the guarantee. And sometimes the clients, the recruiter and the employer does everything right, but the candidate just decides that they’re going to go back and live in Queensland because it’s closer to mum, whatever it might be.
Renata: That’s really very interesting. And I think it’s important for candidates to understand because often they deal, I mean, if they’re doing all the right things, they might deal with the consequence of that economic structure. For example, I’ve had candidates that got jobs and six to eight months later, they hated the job, but they wanted to go back to talk to their recruiter that placed them, but that recruiter was really dismissive and, you know, the feeling was that I can’t do anything about it.
And I believe that there is, you know, some sort of agreement between the recruiter and the employer as well, that you’re not going to get that candidate in place. It’s somewhere else.
Greg Savage: You’re not without the employer’s knowledge. So let’s talk about that. Because it is a sensitive and very difficult area. So you can imagine and you know, in recruitment, just as in law, accounting, medicine, and every other field, you occasionally have unscrupulous people. And it has definitely happened and no doubt will in the future.
A recruitment company will place candidates at client A and then also headhunt candidates from client A. and that is regarded as being deeply unethical and most recruitment companies will have it in their terms that they won’t do that. So if, you know, Smith’s Manufacturing Company is my client and I’m placing candidates there, I will not poach candidates from them.
And certainly the expectation and indeed the explicit agreement is that you won’t poach the person you’ve actually placed. And you can understand why an employer would require that because If the employer does the right thing and brings the recruiter into the process, brings them into the tent, shares their strategic plan, brings them into the company, allows them to meet all their people, which I encourage clients of recruitment companies to do because it allows the recruiter to be much better at making the match.
Then, then that employer would expect that the recruiter wouldn’t abuse that information to harm the business. So you can understand why that’s in place where a candidate has gone into a job and after a period of time, be it three days or, or three years wants to leave. does put the recruiter in a difficult position, but what a good recruiter would do will be work with the candidate to counsel them on how to communicate with their employer.
Maybe if the candidate wants it, and this does happen more than you might think, even facilitate that meeting and try to resolve the issues. That’s where a recruiter can play, for want of a very crass phrase, a very good role in after-sales service. That’s not a phrase I would use normally, but it actually fits in this environment.
It is very hard for the recruiter. Indeed, it would be contravening their agreement with the client to work to place that candidate somewhere else without the client’s knowledge. So a good recruiter would say to the candidate, once you have handed in your notice, I will do everything to find you a new job.
That’s fine because the candidate has the right to make their decision, and then it’s all above board. But can you imagine a recruiter working with a client on a Monday morning to try and fill a job and on a Monday afternoon poaching candidates from the same client? Yeah, that you can’t
Renata: do.
Yes, no, that’s a great answer. And I think a lot of people will be pleased to sort of understand the ins and outs of that collaboration between a recruiter and employer.
Greg Savage: Just pick up a word, a nice word you used there, which I think I want to address. You said sometimes a recruiter can be quite dismissive and I agree that that happens and that is the recruiter still has an obligation to that candidate and must listen and help that candidate work through, even to the point of saying to that candidate, I can’t help you because my hands are tied because of this ethical situation, but.
The problem you’ve got at this current employer is unfixable. You know, maybe the employer says we’re moving to Penrith and you’ve all got to move and work there. I’m just making that up. That’s unfixable. it’s a geographical problem. Then the recruiter might advise the person to look for another job.
I won’t be able to help you because it will really, really um, destroy the recruiter’s relationship with it. Because the thing is, and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve learned this from bitter experience. If you try to explain to their client, but Mr. Clyde, they were going to leave anyway, and I was just helping them. The client will not buy that.
They were like, I paid you 15, 000 to find this person. You’ve also placed other people here. And behind my back, you’re poaching them and placing them with your other clients. And when you hear it in those words, you can see why the client would be annoyed.
Renata: Of course. One thing that you said before made me think of a client, Greg, and I’d love to bring that case study to your attention. She’s not in Australia, but I think this may very well happen here as well. I personally, when I was looking for work, felt what my client feels and experienced what she’s experienced.
She’s a very experienced professional in the finance sector. and the recruiters love her. She has about three to four recruiters that come back to her time and time again, put her in short lists and put her in front of the employers. And she goes to end of the process and doesn’t get a job.
Now, I know for my recruiter friends, this candidate is seen as a star. And you know, when I interview recruiters, they often say, if you’re on the top 20%, you’re doing great. But there are some professionals that tend to get stuck there. And the recruiters like them. They are good at what they do, but they’re not converting.
And she challenges the ability of those recruiters to advocate for her. She doesn’t understand what it is that is keeping her bottlenecking her at that tail end of the process. And I wanted to get your views on this relationship between a darling candidate and a recruiter. And how that sort of translates into those conversations with the employers when the recruiters are in the tent.
Greg Savage: Well, at what stage is she being excluded? Does she get interviews with the, the client? It’s
Renata: Yes, she does. And I’ve in that situation as well, you know, I’ve been in that situation as well of recruiters often thinking of me, tapping me on the shoulder for things, bringing me on board. And then I don’t go through, I never really worried about that because I’m fine. I was fine where I was.
And, you know, I always knew that I wanted to transition to career coaching anyway, but my client really wants a job and I’m here breaking my neck here, trying to support her at this day or land. It’s very sophisticated little tweaks that you need to do as a career coach and a candidate in a job candidate to make those little.
Changes at the tail end of the process. I don’t know if you agree, but that’s how
Greg Savage: Well,
Renata: Final 20 percent that you need to improve is harder than the first 80%.
Greg Savage: I’m not a career coach, but I know why people don’t get jobs and this is nothing to do with the recruiter. This has to do with her.
Greg Savage: The hard, cold truth. The possibility is that the recruiter is overselling us. So, there are a few things we’ve got to look at. First of all, is she — and I don’t want an answer to this.
These are just questions that I would address with her. If she were sitting opposite me, are we targeting the right sorts of jobs that actually coincide with your ability? Yeah.
Because if the recruiter is advocating for her and she’s got a good interview style, she might get partway down the process.
But when push comes to shove, if the job is not appropriate for her ability, then she’s not going to get the gold star. That’s the first thing. The second thing is there might be something wrong with her interview style.
Renata: Yeah.
Greg Savage: It might be something that she is doing or not doing. And this is uncomfortable because people don’t, you know, we don’t see that in ourselves.
Maybe she’s too talkative. Maybe she’s not talkative enough. Maybe she’s confusing being confident with being arrogant. I don’t know the woman. I’m not actually casting aspersions. I’m just giving you examples of the reasons people can often hit their heads against a brick wall. So, in short, is she targeting the right jobs and is her performance?
At the sharp end, the way it should be, those are the two most likely reasons that things are going wrong. I mean, if this has happened multiple times. If it happens once or twice, well, you know, you miss out on jobs. It wasn’t quite the connection, whatever. There was a better candidate at play.
But if it happens multiple times, then one needs to look at those two factors.
Renata: I agree. In this case in particular, I’m 100 percent sure she’s targeting the right jobs. The recruiters have that confidence as well. I think she can improve on her interview style for sure. But I was thinking more about the difference between the brief that recruiters receive from their clients that might be a bit more flexible and inclusive. We want dark horses. We want people from different sectors, from different industries. We want a diverse range of candidates. And then they always opt for the most conservative option. Do you have that feeling? I get feedback about that from both candidates and recruiters who are friends of mine, that sometimes the brief sounds very promising, but then the decision is often very conservative.
Greg Savage: Well, we would be naive to think that discrimination, bias, prejudice, and preference don’t exist in the Australian workplace.
Renata: Yes. I would say worldwide, not just Australia.
Greg Savage: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess we’re talking about Australia, but it’s definitely worldwide. And, I won’t go as far as to say that the more companies use the word diversity and inclusive, the less diverse and inclusive they are, that’s not true, but there’s a lot of lip service paid to that. I do think, I mean, it’s exponentially better than it was 20 years ago or 40 years ago when I first came to Australia and you could actually advertise for women or men and you could advertise for age.
And a lot more than that was going on in those days. It’s much, much, much better. But I think even if people unconsciously biased. You know, we’re getting into a very controversial and nuanced area. I think people make what they perceive to be safe decisions often, which is unfortunate.
Renata: Yes. Okay, now it’s good to have that validation of something that we observe because this is anecdotal information that I get, but it’s good to get your views on that. Let’s move to something less controversial, I hope, psychometric testing and assessments in the recruitment process. I think the question that I sent you is based on, again, another case study from a client of mine who spent two days doing testing as part of this recruitment process and who was not moving forward, although he had received the results from the test and the results were really positive on both cognitive and everything else.
It seemed fine. And he didn’t know what he had done wrong. And considering the time spent, you know, two days is a lot, it’s a long time to be doing tests. What are your views on how assessments are used in the recruitment process? And I think this is more of an outlier situation, but I really wanted to see if you see a trend towards more assessments, especially now that people are using AI to write their job applications.
I was wondering if assessments are going to become more popular.
Greg Savage: I don’t know. I haven’t seen a move that way. I’ve never heard of anyone doing two days of psychometric testing. I’ve never had that in 40 years. So that’s weird. Normally it’s a few hours at most. And, uh,
Renata: It was in the UK, Greg. By the way, it wasn’t in Australia. I have clients everywhere. So
Greg Savage: Yeah, I’ve spent a lot of time in the UK. So anyway, I, I think that what we’re looking at here is a couple of things to answer your question about psychometric testing. I think properly used psychometric testing can be very helpful. As one of the tools you use to make a decision where they are poorly used is when a candidate is assessed as being brilliant for the job.
And then something comes up on a test and they are disqualified because of that one outlying result that is. Not the way they should be used. They should be used in it. That might raise questions and we need to do more reference checking or we have another interview or whatever it might be. So I think that’s where they can be very useful.
I mean, one of my clients, which is a recruitment company, they’ve got a battery of tests and they put all their good people, successful people through them and they’ve, they’ve, they’ve generated a profile of what a successful recruiter looks like and they use that when they’re interviewing people from outside the industry and they find it very useful to raise questions or to confirm what they thought.
And that’s the smart way of using it. In this particular case to get someone to test for that long and then tell them they’re not moving forward with no feedback, it’s just outrageous behavior, inappropriate behavior by the employer because it’s quite possible that the reason this person didn’t go forward had nothing to do with the tests at all.
Renata: Could it.
Greg Savage: Yes. I mean, literally, it could be that the CEO’s sister came back from Peru and they hired her instead. I mean, I’m not joking. These things happen. And this person is left thinking that they’ve got some psychological defect because of the process. So that is just very poor recruitment practice.
And they should be embarrassed about that because it’s well,
Renata: I had a chance to look at the test and I, you know, I felt that it was all above board. I couldn’t see anything wrong with the
Greg Savage: Probably nothing to do with that at all.
Renata: Hmm. Yes. Okay. Another question that you won’t believe this. I hope you know, you believe what I’m about to say, but I sent you a question and it was about a job advertised with an Australian organization in June for a finance role, and we’re now in January.
And I kid you not, that process is still going. So my client is going for an interview. on Tuesday. He actually emailed me to say I have these four options, you know, to choose from for yet another interview with this organization. And I want to see you before my interview to do another prep. and I’m like, I can’t believe this.
Can you please send your everything again? Because I don’t think I can find it in my, folder. It’s so old. What’s going on? I even think about it from the aspect of recruiters getting paid. You know, if it’s a recruiter that’s working on this process and it’s taking forever, I’m assuming that these delays are horrible for business.
Greg Savage: There could be a recruiter who’s been working hard on this for five months and in the end won’t get paid at all. And that’s the dysfunction of it. And you got to understand that all the time that that recruiter has spent on this job that they’re not going to get paid or that’s paid for that time could have been better spent interacting with candidates and returning their calls.
And that’s why there’s some dysfunction in the recruiting industry where there is a bounty hunter type mentality where employers say, let’s give this job to three recruiters and they’ll all work hard on it. It doesn’t happen. It just means that it’s going to be convoluted, confused and disruptive for everybody.
In this particular case, look, there could be a thousand reasons. Don’t underestimate the deep-rooted incompetence in many organizations. I’m serious. don’t underestimate the fact the job is maybe not even real. I mean, you’ve told me he’s got another interview now, so it probably is, but there can be extenuating circumstances.
Because clients don’t pay recruiters unless they’re successful, plenty of times employers will give a job to a recruiter so they can benchmark an internal candidate they’re planning to hire into a new role or promote against the marketplace. So the candidates who go for that job do so with energy and excitement, but it’s not even a real job because they’ve actually got someone in mind.
I’m not saying that’s the case, but that happens. they might have a contractor in the role who they’re testing out, try before you buy. And they look, they, they, dabble in the outside market to compare. I mean, I’m just making these things up, but they remember their, their examples of what happened all the time.
I was going to say that one of the answers could be they didn’t get the job, but they just didn’t tell you. And that could actually be true. Maybe they hired somebody else, but after a month they decided they weren’t suitable. So they’ve gone back to the pool of candidates. You know, there’s all these things, but this is an example of just really bad management of the candidate experience and I don’t think companies understand how much it harms their employer brand, but also their actual brand. Sometimes, you know, I’ve got candidates who have said to me when they’ve had a bad experience with an employer, ‘I’m not even gonna buy their products anymore, let alone work,’ you know, so it’s disappointing, but there isn’t enough energy.
And this is true of recruiters, agencies as well as the final employer. Enough energy put into, you know, I’m going to use a word that’s not used in recruitment very much, but I believe in it. There’s not enough empathy for the experience of the candidate, keeping this person in the job, or your other candidate who did all those psych tests and then was told they’re unsuccessful.
I mean, you don’t have to be smart to realize that would leave the person doubting.
Yes, it’s very unfair because that person’s got to go out and look for another job with their confidence smashed. So that’s bad. It’s very bad.”
Renata: “Well, what we do here when I’m coaching my clients is that we understand the game is rigged, but we just play with the rules of the game. So for example, this same client that has the interview next week for this role that he’s been applying for since June, he was interested in a role. And when we did our research online, we found that the role was advertised by two different companies, two different recruitment companies, one based in Australia and one doing a global search overseas for the same role. And the Australian one said, ‘Sorry, mate, you’re not the right person for the job.’ And he came to me and I said, ‘Apply through the other company.’ You know, we’ve done the assessment for the role and your competencies and your experience, it’s a good fit for you, you feel comfortable about it, and he is going through the process with the global recruitment company. Isn’t that…
If the game is messed up, we mess it up. We go along and don’t self-select out.”
Greg Savage: “I mean, yeah, I think you do what you can, but what you’re doing is, uh, what so many candidates are doing is having to respond to a dysfunctional process. The client should not have given the job to two recruitment companies. They should give it to one competent recruitment company and channel all the work.
And the candidates through that company. I’ll get a far better outcome and everyone will know who they’re dealing with, but yeah, that’s common. That’s a common…”
Renata: “But look, having said all of these things and Greg having said all of these things and we’re tapping, asked you to come on board because we had so many questions and it’s good to acknowledge the dysfunctionality, but I’ve equally had great experiences with 80 percent of my clients doing really well working with recruiters, developing great relationships, learning the etiquette of how to work with recruiters, knowing that the recruiters have.
clients and that the candidates are not their clients. So understanding diplomacy and the politics of playing this game of, you know, being the candidate and not the client. One day you may be the client. Right now you’re not. So, you know, putting them in their place and sort of understanding how the game works is part of my job.
And it’s working 80 percent of the time. I’ll tell you it works really well. So that’s, you know, that’s good to know. But before we finish, I want to get your views on how recruiters think about candidates who are unemployed because of redundancies, because of, you know, layoffs. And as you know, job seekers are shocked. They usually go into grieving mode and their mentality and the way that their brain works makes them very sensitive about their own situation and overthinking about what others think about their situation. And I want you to kind of be very honest and frank and tell the listeners who are unemployed and looking for work, what recruiters think. What I tell them is that 80 percent of the people that apply for jobs don’t have jobs. And recruiters are very used to dealing with people that have been made redundant, that have been fired, that have been laid off.
You need to have an authentic, true, honest story to tell, and you need to feel confident telling it. Is that a good way of…”
Greg Savage: “I think fine. You me to be honest and direct.
Uh, I trust that you have worked out that I cannot communicate in any other way. No, there’s no risk of that. I’m not here to defend any interests particularly. Look, the truth is this. I think it is a proven fact.
Empirical, as well as anecdotal, that it’s easier for someone to get a job if they are in a job. That is…”
Renata: “A fact.”
Greg Savage: “Coming back from maternity leave. A wide variety of reentries. And if the person has the skills and the approach, It will make virtually no difference to the recruiter’s effort.
In actual fact, it’s actually appealing to a recruiter because if they find the person a good offer, they’re very likely to accept it. And there’s no chance of a counteroffer because they don’t have an employer. So I would encourage people. Who have been like, Oh, look, take, for example, the IT sector, the tech sector, which was running a hot post COVID so hot, you know, people candidates in that area was so confident they would take a job and their attitude would be, well, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll be able to get 10 other jobs.
Well, that has changed. And a lot of people in tech and startups and even the big tech. But a recruiter will still look at that person in an extremely positive way. They will focus on their skills. They will focus on their demeanor and their approach and their how realistic they are about salary, etc.
And they’re very, very, very skilled at overcoming any of their clients skepticism about an unemployed person. You know, they’re getting with it all the time. And so I would encourage people not, I know it’s it’s shocking and it’s hit to the confidence and all of that. But recruiters will actually find you a very positive person to work with because you’re going to accept a job if it comes your way.
And that’s what their job is to find you jobs. So I would not overplay that in the mind of the candidate.
Renata: “Excellent. Now thank you so much for answering that, and I think it’s important for people to just accept where they are. And, you know, know that that happens if you are having a long career like yours, four decades or, or you’re halfway through, chances are it’s going to be up and down. It’s not going to be a linear career for most of us.
Greg Savage: “And, you know, the market’s going to fluctuate as it does. And I think a while, I want to, I want to voice this very carefully while a person who is unemployed. Must still hold the same standards in terms of what they’re looking for. I think flexibility is helpful. And by that, I don’t mean go backwards, but maybe a contract gig while you’re looking for permanent work.
That is very positive because it increases your, well, first it’s good financially. Secondly it will teach you new skills. Thirdly, you’re connecting with employers. And it buys the recruiter time to find you the right job if you’re in a contract. So that may not have been what you had in mind, but, you know, for example, the contract and temporary market for jobs, I suspect this year is going to be stronger because companies are tentative about hiring permanently.
It may not be what you’re looking for, but but a three month gig a six month gig while you look for a permanent job can be a very smart way to go. And often those, often those jobs turn into permanent jobs anyway.
Renata: “Yes, you’re right, Greg. It has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. It’s so important for my audience, for my clients and myself to have conversations like the one we’re having today, because it’s one thing for them to listen to what I’m saying, but to have somebody with your expertise and your extensive experience come and validate the topics that we’ve discussed in previous episodes is really, really important.
So thank you so much for making the time. I am honored to have you on the show. Is there anything that we haven’t discussed that you would like to say before we leave?
Greg Savage: “Well, firstly, thank you for having me on your podcast and I’m honored to be on it. I think what I touched on before, I’ll be very direct about this. In the recruitment industry, as with all industries, there are some very, very high performers, some very, very competent, ethical, in tune operators.
And there’s also a whole population of people who drift into our industry and out of it. And as a job seeker, I encourage you to do your due diligence. On the recruiters you work with. I know sometimes it’s not in your control. You see a job that you want to go for and a certain recruiter’s handling that job and you need to deal with them.
That’s absolutely fine. Look for the quality recruiters in your niche. Look for their longevity in the industry. Ask them generically what sort of clients they’ve worked with in the past. Ask them if they have opportunities that aren’t advertised because you know, a good recruiter will be opening doors that you don’t even know exist.
And always remember that while you said correctly, that recruiters have clients and candidates. But as I’m reminding recruiters every day, yes, the client pays the fee. But if we didn’t have access to good candidates, we’d be generating no fee. So candidates are just as important and smart recruiters get that, and they build relationships with candidates because they placed them many times.
They get referrals and recommendations, but I encourage candidates to deal with them with authenticity and reliability. If you don’t want to be in the process, if you’re not interested in a job, you can say so that’s absolutely no problem. But if you say, ‘I will go to this interview tomorrow at three o’clock,’ don’t cancel it five to three.
Cause that is a very poor reflection on you. It’s very poor reflection on the recruiter and they will probably lose confidence in trying to help you. So backfire. So I just think building those strong relationships based on trust. It’s going to help you, particularly, you know, most people listening to this will be in the earlier parts of their career, and a good recruiter will be an ally for your, for your recruiting life.
Renata: “Wonderful, that’s, what a great way to finish. Thank you so much, Greg, once again.
Greg Savage: “Absolute pleasure.”
